Tuesday 16 April 2013

No.10748, Tuesday 16 Apr 13, Afterdark

Welcome to Afterdark. Liked the clues for AWARENESS, ARTERY, TITRATE and ROMANIA. I was thrown off by the unsymmetrical grid and had difficulty with 15A and 27A before I spotted my mistake with the grid. I noticed two of my pet peeves too - giving away large parts of the answer for free in the clue and surfaces that aren't wholly convincing. But this is Afterdark's debut, so good luck to him. Onwards and upwards

ACROSS
1 Maybe old, you can leave Henry and catch the bird (6) TOUCAN (ThOU + CAN)
4 Rascals living in southern tents (6) SCAMPS (S + CAMPS)
9 Case to hold alien, you and setter (4) ETUI (ET + U + I)
10 Each rendering is a travesty (10) PERVERSION (PER + VERSION)
11 Restriction Nero almost faced to raise flag (6) BANNER (BAN + NERo)
12 Strong Vet hides strong males (8) VEHEMENT (VET outside HE-MEN)
13 Lifer returned with the fish replenishment (9) REFILLING (LIFER<= + LING)
15 Engineer kidnapped the boy inside using a knife (5) BLADE (BE outside LAD)
16 God doesn't play ---, said the Nobel Laureate (4) DICE (GK)
17 Knowledge of a conflict at eastern headland? (9) AWARENESS (A + WAR + E + NESS)
21 Order nothing for the soldier (8) COMMANDO (COMMAND  + O)
22 Envelope // a capital (6) MANILA (DD)
24 Morale went for a toss getting the fruit (10) WATERMELON (MORALE WENT)*
25 Media from the east missing an article is the same in Latin (4) IDEM (MEDIa)<=
26 Charter youngster furnished for the vessel (6) ARTERY (T)
27 Colour displayed when mother hugged a gent (7) MAGENTA (MA outside A GENT)

DOWN
1 Analyse bird speed (7) TITRATE (TIT + RATE)
2 One French setter on for a marriage (5) UNION (UN + I + ON)
3 Crumpled paper packed by all endlessly use as clothing (7) APPAREL (PAPER* inside ALl)
5 Credit on oriental revolutionary to start a nursery (6) CRECHE (CR + E + CHE)
6 Mules monk beat up to fetch a fruit (9) MUSKMELON (MULES MONK)*
7 Ron & Edward hauled up by Supreme Court & held in contempt (7) SCORNED (SC + RON* + ED)
8 Gutsy contemporary universe as portrayed by Huxley (5,3,5) BRAVE, NEW, WORLD (BRAVE + NEW + WORLD)
14 At home with corrupt member (9) INCUMBENT (IN + CUM + BENT)
16 Learners miss alternative armadillo 3D model (7) DIORAMA (ARMADIllO)*
18 Listlessly roam in a country (7) ROMANIA (ROAM IN A)*
19 Indian sage accepting lie is important (7) SALIENT (SANT outside LIE)
20 A night, for starters in Rome brought up charm in America (6) ENAMOR (A N inside ROME)<=
23 Immature Evian went back (5) NAIVE (EVIAN)<=


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73 comments:

  1. Anonymous16 April 2013 at 08:31

    Welcome after dark. ;-)

    Thanks for the Watermelon and the Muskmelon during these hot days.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 08:56

      Thanks Kishore. Space in the alias noted this time :)

      Delete
    2. Anonymous16 April 2013 at 12:58

      Remembered a quote about the reason why the sun did not use to set on the British empire. Since even God does trust them after darkness falls. But I think they have become more trustworthy now, since the sun does set in the British empire nowadays.

      Delete
  2. Deepak Gopinath16 April 2013 at 08:33

    Welcome After Dark

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 08:58

      Thank you very much Colonel. Not just for the welcome message, but for all the encouragement & opportunities you have provided for budding setters like me and many others. Thanks once again.

      Delete
  3. Deepak Gopinath16 April 2013 at 08:35

    I raised this issue at the Orkut group. Now let me initiate it here as well for discussion.

    Do you feel that the Grid should be symmetric?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bhavan16 April 2013 at 08:40

      As long as the lack of symmetry isn't affecting the number of letters available through crossings or the number of unches in one clue, I'm fine with an unsymmetrical grid.

      Delete
    2. Suresh16 April 2013 at 08:41

      No reason at all for it to be symmetric.

      Delete
    3. VJ16 April 2013 at 08:44

      Of course it should be symmetric, for the simple reason that it's the norm. It's about meeting the required specifications.

      Had the norms been different, I'd not have had anything to complain.

      Delete
  4. Deepak Gopinath16 April 2013 at 08:41

    It appears that the App created by Chitra is unable to pick up an Asymmetric grid, because the online paper is showing the grid correctly whereas the App has not been able to pick it up. However the Android app has picked it up and shows the grid.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Suresh16 April 2013 at 08:42

    Agree with Bhavan's comment on the head line that large parts of the clue should not be present in the answer.

    ReplyDelete
  6. VJ16 April 2013 at 08:48

    10A: PER is an incomplete synonym of EACH, ain't it? It's kinda used pretty often in THC's.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Padmanabhan16 April 2013 at 08:49

    It was after dark when I opened today's Hindu to find Afterdark and I could see the light and started filling right away without verifying the dark/ light squares for symmetry and I did not have any problem. Probably it is so for those like me who use a hard copy of The Hindu. Thank you Afterdark for a nice CW with coolers as Kishore put it.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 08:50

    I didn't visit the Orkut community today. In any case I might not have answered the question there as that is no longer as active as it used to be and this is the place for exchange of views, opinions, peeves, complaints, grice, etc.

    The grid must be symmetric.

    The symmetry is pleasing to the eye The aesthetic value of any feature cannot be ignored.

    Symmetry in grid is noticed in any standard crossword published in any English language newspaper. As someone said elsewhere crosswords in the vernacular newspapers mostly - if not always - has no symmetry in the grid. That is because the local language is not so amenable to crossword clueing and so setters make merry. This kind of free-form grid is used for English crosswords only in school where some words listed for learning vocab are listed and they are entered in a grid ignoring symmetry and having large banks of blocks.

    I don't know how this grid - I mean just the grid - got past. For, any regular solver of THC - leave alone setter - knows that THC uses blocked gid with symmetry.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. VJ16 April 2013 at 09:00

      Compiling crosswords on recognized software should take care of this issue right?

      Delete
    2. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 09:10

      Not necessarily, I think.

      The above is an offhand answer.

      Unless one chooses a two-way or four-way symmetry and then one goes on to set up a fresh grid (not any in the inbuilt library) one might make mistakes and produce a grid sans symmetry.

      If one ticks the option of symmetry and then starts to produce a grid, the sw takes care of the symmetry.

      In the Sixties and Seventies we produced grids with paper, penci/ballpoint/sketch pen and eraser. We needed to count cells in columns and rows to fix the symmetry. Those were exciting and excitable days and you johnnies and jackies with so much of techie help are missing a lot of things, I tell you.

      Delete
    3. VJ16 April 2013 at 10:59

      Thanks CV, for your clarification

      Delete
  9. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 09:00

    Thanks Bhavan for the feedback. Point noted on the 'not giving away' part and the surfaces. Will surely work on them better.

    Thanks to you too Suresh

    ReplyDelete
  10. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 09:04

    I must add that grid symmetry demands a certain discipline in the setter.

    If symmetry is not needed, we can go on put words of our choice and alter the disposition of blocks as we please until the 15x15 square is filled with words and blocks.

    On the other hand (don't know if this is left or right, but whatever it is) having a pre-determined grid with the blocks placed in a symmetrical fashion, filling it with words requires a certain level of vocab, patience, etc.

    Now, with word pattern search software this is not that difficult but in the Sixties and earlier decades we crossword setters - without technological aid - were populating symmetric grids with words.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 09:12

    Firstly, apologies for the unsymmetrical grid. No excuses. In fact, in another puzzle that I sent to Colonel, he pointed out the flaw. The same template was used for this one. All the more reason on why I should have double checked.

    Apart from the norms & aesthetics which are important, the fact that the app doesn't pick up the grid is bothersome too.

    Will take care in future. Sorry again.

    @VJ - This was created using Excel and I have now moved on to CW Compiler. But even there, an accidental double-click at the block changes it to a blank/word.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 09:17

      After creating a grid, you have the option of 'lock grid'. When once the grid is locked, changes in blocks cannot be done. Any accidental double-click won't have any effect.

      Delete
    2. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 09:20

      Thanks CV Sir .. Will do that immediately on the saved grids.

      Delete
  12. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 09:58

    Envelope // a capital (6)

    Is there a problem here?

    a capital - MANILA - no prob.

    Envelope - MANILA. Again no prob because a Manila cover is a Manila envelope.

    But envelop - v. to cover by wrapping, to surround, to hide - is spelt thus - not envelope. So the surface reading of the clue 'envelope a capital' seems to be problematic!

    IF we look at the two definitions individually (the blogger has helpfully provided the division ind //), there's no prob. But a DD clue must be plausible and meaningful when read as a whole.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 10:07

      Noted. Thanks

      Delete
    2. Suresh16 April 2013 at 11:52

      Well noticed CV. I had missed this point out totally in the reading of the clue

      Delete
  13. Sridhar16 April 2013 at 09:59

    I really like the crossword puzzle today, (perhaps because I solved it without any googling)!

    A couple of questions arose in my mind:
    1) In 15A, can "kidnapped" act like containment indicator, thereby removing the word "inside" in the clue? It makes the surface more elegant.
    2) In 20D, is the indication "in America" necessary? I thought "enamor" was sufficicently British..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 10:05

      'Enamor' is not British. Period.

      Delete
    2. Chaturvasi16 April 2013 at 10:08

      Making that 'period' a 'comma' -

      Those reading English books or those reading articles on the Internet must be sure of the origin of the book/article.

      We might be reading a book in English printed in the US where 'enamour' is spelt 'enamor'. That shouldn't make us think that 'enamor' is British spelling of the word.

      Delete
    3. Suresh16 April 2013 at 10:12

      I take a more liberal view on this. As long as Enamor is given in a standard English dictionary, it is okay not to say American. This spelling is in OED, though it is given as US.

      I think it is fine not to specify American in the clue, though many in the group may not agree with me.

      Delete
    4. Raghunath16 April 2013 at 10:17

      I think it is a bit unfair to have US spelling without qualification. I'm fine with the ind. being present.

      Delete
    5. Raghunath16 April 2013 at 10:21

      I feel the setter loses a bit of freedom, by banning US spelling. I doubt if Cockney sounding words are found in any std. dic, but are accepted.

      Delete
    6. Suresh16 April 2013 at 10:53

      It also depends on what is a standard dictonary. If we take the complete OED, which runs into something like 23 volumes almost everything and every kind of spelling would be there.

      Lovely Indianisations like 'prepone' have found their way into the OED.

      Delete
    7. Raghunath16 April 2013 at 11:19

      Would you really accept PREPONE in the THC?

      Delete
    8. Suresh16 April 2013 at 11:37

      Yes

      Delete
    9. Suresh16 April 2013 at 11:44

      English is a very dynamic language and has constantly been amenable to changes. That is the beauty of the language and we need to accept that. If it enters OED I take it as a confirmation that the word is now a part of the English language.

      Delete
    10. Col_Gopinath16 April 2013 at 12:35

      I thought english is a phunny language, even the Big B said so ;-)

      Delete
    11. Suresh16 April 2013 at 12:37

      Truly the last word on the subject

      Delete
    12. Raghunath16 April 2013 at 12:40

      and INDISH is even more. POSTPAID (= our PREPAID) as per dic is postage paid 'in advance', whereas we use it for paying after mob. bill's recd!

      Delete
    13. Suresh16 April 2013 at 12:48

      Like Pre-owned cars giving the impression of a car which is custom-made. Owned before it is manufactured

      Delete
  14. Richard16 April 2013 at 11:33

    Just hazarding a guess. Is the real name of AfterDark 'Rajnikant' by chance? Rajnikant, I guess, is another name for the moon, which glows in the dark. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous16 April 2013 at 12:27

      To my knowledge, it is not. But, by chance, I can give you around 50% marks.

      Afterdark, I did not want to reveal your identity, since you have not done it yourself (which you may choose to do at a time convenient to you or may not choose to). Say hi to Tej. ;-)

      Delete
    2. Suresh16 April 2013 at 12:46

      Neelkant, maybe

      Delete
    3. Anonymous16 April 2013 at 12:55

      Immanuel Kant, maybe

      Delete
    4. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 13:14

      :) I have no issues in revealing my identity. But good I didn't. Else we would have missed Kishore's comment that gave raise to many Kant's. Well my name is Shrikanth. So Richard did get 50% right.

      Tej says Hi to you too Kishore. :)

      Delete
    5. Suresh16 April 2013 at 13:23

      Welcome to the setters community.

      Or that would be wrong, since I am not a part of that community.

      Delete
    6. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 14:50

      Thanks Suresh

      Delete
  15. Col_Gopinath16 April 2013 at 12:33

    Anymore budding setters lurking around here? If so send me your attempts at setting for inclusion in the Sunday specials.

    ReplyDelete
  16. VMA Nair16 April 2013 at 12:37

    Nice puzzle Afterdark

    ReplyDelete
  17. Navneeth16 April 2013 at 12:45

    Perhaps it's due to me not being a setter, but I don't understand the inisitence on a symmetric grid. I mean, as long as it's not misleading the solver, I consider it something akin to bad surfaces, and even then would prefer the clues to have better surfaces than a symmetric grid. Symmetry of thr grid is something I hardly notice. The first time I came across this aspect of a crossword was when, I think, Kishore pointed out an instance a few years ago. And even today, without the header from Bhavan, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. So, as I said, it's probably a setter's thing.

    For some reason, I thought Afterdark had already published in The Hindu, but I was mistaken. So welcome aboard. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Col_Gopinath16 April 2013 at 12:50

      Afterdark has published his CWs in the Sunday Specials on this blog, that's why you feel so

      Delete
  18. Navneeth16 April 2013 at 12:47

    "So welcome aboard."

    Scratch that. It makes me sound like a setter for TH. Let me change that to "Congratulations!" instead.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Krishnan16 April 2013 at 12:57

    Welcome Afterdark. I liked the puzzle immensely.

    ReplyDelete
  20. raju umamaheswar16 April 2013 at 13:26

    Am just chipping my two bit. Symmetry always helps. It lends to aestheitcs and orderliness. I;ve also seen and done larger grids that were unsymmetric(or is it asymmetirc? and feel that one can always give credit to the compiler for thinking out of the box Pun intended) and hence welcome.

    CV is right. It used to be such a pain in the you know what when one had had to compile sans the mod-tek software. I used to burn midnight oil in Nairobi when I unwittingly committed to compile a crossword feature, thematically restricted to insurance language and terms. Struggling on a graph paer,with pencil and eraser and filling in the words first and then cluing them up backwards. I realised, it is best left to pros. Now that the compilers' ilk is growing, I'm almost tempted to jump on to the bandwagon; which would mean my solving time off-- I'd rather do that-- when you have a cow at home, why buy the milk and all that sort of rot !

    After Dark, welcome and may your tribe grow exponentially. Do pursue thinking out of the box and produce more unsymmetrical crosswords. This blog is to encourage all creative minds to keep US busy !!

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    Replies
    1. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 13:44

      Thanks Raju

      Delete
    2. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 13:59

      But I need to admit ... Asymmetry was caused by oversight . But it is encouraging to hear views that favour setters taking some liberty if it is not too much of a mind/eyesore.

      Delete
  21. PKPSwami16 April 2013 at 13:36

    Nice cw. Clues were easy todecipher.Its a stroll in the park for a solver. 1a & 1d very nice. Its a dawn fromAfterdark. Congrats.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Unknown16 April 2013 at 14:14

    Shouldn't there have been a homophone indicator in 9A? i presumed you = U.

    ReplyDelete
  23. VP16 April 2013 at 14:31

    Welcome Afterdark. Nice opener albeit on the easier side. Looking forward to many more interesting puzzles from you.
    On the topic of symmetry, I look at that aspect in most things because it aesthetically appeals to me (annoying my wife in doing so every time !!) . Certainly feel that a 15x15 cryptic grid should be symmetric especially given that's the norm.

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    Replies
    1. Shrikanth16 April 2013 at 14:48

      Thanks VP. Yup this one is a easy. My opinion as a solver has always been that a CW should provide the satisfaction of completing it, sometimes at a cost even being easy. But without compromising on good surface and CW grammar. As a part of the community, I feel that we are lucky to have some brilliant setters who manage to do both. Hope that I can graduate to that level someday soon. :)

      Delete
    2. raju umamaheswar16 April 2013 at 18:01

      AFTERDARK: Don't you fish in the muddled waters ! You have already post-graduated and on to your PhD.

      Yesterday's Phantom made me feeling good. Lots of decoys ! I thought of FREESIAN for 16d.and then got the Spectre's idea of pulling power of decoys..

      10a: Didn't KInky sex bit evoke any titillation from any one ? A wonderful red herring thrown ! Intrinsically extrinsic , I should say.

      What does one say about UNDERWENT as opposed to UNDERGONE?
      Devious and dubious .

      All in all, an excellent exercise for the brains .

      Delete
    3. The Battōsai16 April 2013 at 19:28

      ...a CW should provide the satisfaction of completing it, sometimes at a cost even being easy. But without compromising on good surface and CW grammar. As a part of the community, I feel that we are lucky to have some brilliant setters who manage to do both. Hope that I can graduate to that level someday soon. :)
      Similar feelings here. :)

      Although I should say, I like the symmetry, and the non-usage of American spelling.

      Delete
    4. The Battōsai16 April 2013 at 19:29

      I meant I like CCWs with such characteristics better.

      Delete
    5. Shrikanth17 April 2013 at 09:46

      I really meant it Raju. But I will take your comment any day .. As a huge compliment :)

      Delete
  24. pavalamani pragasam16 April 2013 at 15:45

    Happy to read the debut setter's obliging answers to all the peeves and complaints from the solvers. I fully agree with CV about symmetry being necessary in the grid for both its aesthetic value for the solver's eye and the restraining, challenging nature to the setter's skill. It is lazy, careless setters who give unsymmetric grids in the vernacular papers, is my opinion. Our forum member Parthasarathy gives an online monthly Tamil crossword puzzle(9 square grid-symmetric)and it is a pleasure solving them. Purists like CV and I cannot digest/embrace many changes - beside the grid symmetry, the acceptance of American spelling which I can never accept in personal use-call it bias, peeve, intolerance or whatever. Thanks to the Colonel for having provided us this nice platform for such active, interesting discussions!

    ReplyDelete
  25. Suresh16 April 2013 at 17:32


    re Richard's 11:33 on seeing the moon after dark. I thought we would see the sun after dark.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Padmanabhan16 April 2013 at 19:56

      By 'after dark' he means after sunset, I suppose.

      Delete
  26. The Battōsai16 April 2013 at 19:19

    Sorry am late. :)
    Nice work Afterdark!!!
    It was great to see your crossie on THE HINDU!

    ReplyDelete

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