Satyen Nabar's Sun Spl analysed

Sunday, 30 July 2023

Special, Sunday 30 Jul 2023, Economizer

Welcome to our new setter ECONOMIZER. Bouquets and Brickbats welcome.

Three
answers per commenter till 6 PM (Annotations compulsory) 
Please submit all your answers in one comment.  

(COMMENTS ENTERED WITH LESS THAN THREE ANSWERS/ANNOTATIONS WILL BE DELETED WITHOUT NOTICE, UNLESS THE COMMENTER SPECIFIES THAT IT IS A COMPENSATION FOR A REPEAT)


Enjoy.

152 comments:

  1. 2d USELESS
    Monica = seles (tennis player)
    seles in US
    def: incompetent

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 4d COMPRISING
      (crimson + pig)*
      def: containing

      Delete
    2. 8d LACONIC
      (conical)*
      def: concise

      Delete
    3. monica (proper noun) needs an indication.

      Delete
    4. Re: Proper noun - what sort of indication would suffice? Something like "Say, Monica in America is useless"?

      Delete
  2. 14d SUBTERFUGE - deception
    {future begs*}

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A note on this clue. Definition could be either "Sham" or "deception". Anagrind could be either "sham" or "deception" depending on which is considered to be the definition.

      Delete
  3. 1ac - MUSE - consider
    Sum - problem 《= + e drug

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  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  5. 3dn - ENVIRONMENT - surroundings
    (In (at home) + env + tormen)*

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is indirect anagram an absolute no-no? What are the technical constraints to be followed by the setter?

      Delete
    2. Indirect anagram is absolutely no-no in any cryptics.
      Standard abbreviation, not synonyms, leading to unambiguious abbr are accepted.
      Ambiguios single letters are tolerated. Like side could mean r/l/s etc.
      Otherwise the anagram fodder need to be plainly visible in the clue.

      Delete
    3. Like flas(-h)+o is accepted. Ply* is not.

      Delete
    4. Noted. Thank you for clarifying that. I also recommend explicitly adding this guidance under the "guidelines for Sunday Specials". As the page also encourages experimentation, it may be useful to recap for new setters what does not count as experimentation.

      Delete
  6. 16A: NEUROTIC NICE TOUR*
    23A: BETRAYING E + TYING BRA*
    14D: SUBTERFUGR FUTURE BEGS*

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    Replies
    1. 16a what is the anind!
      does around/about mean along with. how does the two fod's come together for anagram.

      Delete
    2. Yes. Was difficult to parse this. WP needs correction.

      Delete
    3. 16A Obsessed about tour around Nice...(8)
      Definition: Obsessed
      Anno: {NICE* anind: around} around {TOUR* anind: about}
      Now that you point it out I think "around" doing double duty is ambiguous and that there should be a separate anind included for Nice.

      Maybe I could reword it as 16A Obsessed about tour around nice resort...(8)

      Delete
  7. 16a NEUROTIC: obsessed
    (Tour nice)*

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  8. Economizer - that was easy. Done & dusted.
    And quite delightful.
    Thanx for a great Sunday start

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow! Well solved. I'll have to hope my next grid proves more challenging for you.

      Delete
  9. 12A- Satin- (stain)*
    Def.- Polished finish

    ReplyDelete
  10. Replacement
    17a DECENNIA - decades
    {nice Dance*}

    ReplyDelete
  11. 26A (repl 14d repeat)

    COKE C(-h)OKE suffocate H = Heroin

    ReplyDelete
  12. 20A-Facts= F Acts- Statistics
    Measures= Acts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Think of "Acts" as in "Acts of Parliament"...they are measures passed by the state.

      Delete
  13. 18a TOASTS: drinks
    TO(AS)TS
    Tots: kids around as: assam

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  14. 17d: DIFFERS: disagrees( quarrels?)
    D ( daughter) I(F: fellow)FERS: fries with f, cooking is anind

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chambers Thesaurus lists "quarrel" as a synonym for "differ"

      Delete
    2. Thanks Economizer. Am wiser now

      Delete
  15. Repl for 16a
    19d TANTRIK:mystic
    TK: empty track
    ANTRI: detailed train

    ReplyDelete
  16. Your anno is incorrect, the clue is not an anagram.

    ReplyDelete
  17. SPRINGTIME is correct. However the anno is incorrect.

    ReplyDelete
  18. 1 ac muse sum <e.problem-sum.
    drug -e
    11 dn pancake scan-pan.block-cake

    ReplyDelete
  19. Replies
    1. Col, are consecutive unches discouraged? As this was my first grid, I used the example provided in Wikipedia under the Cryptic Crossword article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_crossword

      Delete
    2. absolute no no in THCC blog (THC also till date except an odd one for short time in earlier era when things were getting defined). this grid is technically allowed in some publications.
      I for one stopped solving after spotting them.

      Delete
    3. I'm quite sure none of my subsequent grids has this problem. Can you explain why such a pattern is not permitted?

      Delete
    4. @Col I suggest adding this requirement to your blog's page entitled "Sunday Specials". I had gone through the requirements there in detail prior to submission. This requirement was not mentioned.

      Delete
    5. No more than two unchecked letters in a row
      Roughly half the letters checked in every word. In an 8-letter word, at least 4 letters will be checked. Where the word length is odd, some publications might round down the number of checking letters to just below half; those with stricter standards of fairness like The Times and Gridman's grids in The Hindu round it up. This means that in a 7-letter word, at least surely 3 will be checked.
      If two unches occur together, the Times grid has an additional rule that they will not be the first two or last two letters of the word.

      Delete
    6. 4A, 9A, 24A and 25A have consecutive unches. In the case of 4A and 25A, 50% of the letters are checked. In the case of 9A and 24A, 7 out of 15 letters are checked, which is the maximum possible for a 15-letter clue.

      Delete
    7. I stand corrected. It is possible to have 8 checks in a 15-letter clue.

      Delete
    8. In the down clues
      This grid has three unchecked letters in a row, breaking the first rule of fair checking. I know of no other daily crossword that would consider this grid publishable.

      Delete
    9. Just to clarify, @Gowri my grid here does not have 3 unchecked letters in a row, but rather the example provided in Shuchi's blog CrosswordUnclued has the 3 unchecked letters in a row.

      Delete
    10. If the grid has 3 unchecked * (typo)

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    11. Correction: 8 out of 15 is the maximum number of checks possible for a 15-letter clue. I agree that 7 out of 15 could be considered technically unfair.

      As a clarification, @Gowri's comment regarding 3 unchecks in a row does not apply in the case of this grid.

      Delete
    12. its more about fairness to solver.
      crosswords once were more about language than general knowledge. (meaning most words were from dictionary than popular.) Easy-ness to have an educated guess based on crossings was also a factor in grid setting. unches make them more hunches than guesses.

      Delete
    13. more importantly the setters challenge should be on setting the clue than difficulty of navigating grid.

      Delete
    14. I don't think @Gowri's comment re: 3 consecutive unches applies here.

      For 4A and 25A, 50% of the letters are checked. However I agree that 7/15 checks is not ideal when 8 is possible (I stand corrected from my comment above that 7 is the maximum possible).

      Delete
    15. Just to clarify - I don't think the comments regarding 3 unches (or "more than 2 consecutive unches") in a row apply in the case of the current grid. For 4A and 25A, we have 50% of of the letters checked which I believe is fair. I agree that the situation is less than ideal for 9A and 24A, where 8/15 checks are possible but only 7 have been checked in the grid above.

      Delete
    16. "No more than two unchecked letters in a row" - @sree_sree, hope you will change your mind and continue solving the grid.

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    17. thats why I said technically other publications allow.
      please avoid here.
      i even give a dissent note on perfectly (for cryptic crossy's) checked grids but where the navigation is congested by only one or two arterial roads!

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    18. There are also 2 consecutive unches in 16A and 17A, but again 50% of the letters are checked and nowhere are there "more than 2 consecutive unches".

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    19. @sree_sree, noted re: avoiding the pattern here. My subsequent grids don't have this problem. I recommend adding this technical requirement under "guidelines for sunday specials" in this blog. Currently only grid size and symmetry are mentioned on that page.

      Delete
    20. symmetry does miss. this is a hybrid grid between even-checking grid to odd-checking gridd.

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    21. Note to new setters: don't use the grid from Wikipedia for your first grid!

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    22. @sree_sree I think symmetry needs to be better defined. I see horizontal symmetry but not vertical symmetry in this grid. The requirements for this site specify "symmetry" but not whether horizontal symmetry, vertical symmetry or both.

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    23. @sree_sree do note that symmetry in this grid is consistent with the THC standard of 180-degree rotational symmetry. Recent grids by Gussalufz and other setters in the THC have the same level of symmetry. The switch from odd-to-even checking doesn't matter. This is because when the grid is flipped upside down the checks are in the same locations.

      Delete
    24. I wont argue if the defence is textbook.
      So in gen terms:
      isnt there a loss of symmetry when you shift from odd to even checking. Half of it is even and half of it is odd!
      How is that symmetry.

      Delete
    25. This grid is symmetric because the definition of symmetry is "having the same appearance when rotated a certain amount along an axis". The textbook definition of symmetry for cryptics is "half-turn symmetry" or 180-degrees. That means that flipping the grid upside down should produce black-and-white blocks in the same positions. This is similar to, though not technically the same as "mirror symmetry", which is usually applicable for 3D objects.

      Regardless of half the checks being even and half being odd, if you turn your screen upside down you will observe that the black and white squares appear in the same position as they were when the screen was right-side up, thereby meeting the definition of symmetry. Try it!

      This grid's symmetry holds because the change from odd-checks to even-checks happens after Row 8 which is the exact horizontal midpoint of the grid. The 8th row follows a directionally agnostic symmetry. This means that the left half and the right half of the 8th row are identical, which is not the case for the other rows (and which does not have to be the case for half-turn rotational symmetry in cryptics).

      Delete
  20. 23 built-assembled.
    blt-sandwich b(ui)lt

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wondered how BLT is sandwich.
      Googled and found it stands for
      bacon, lettuce and tomato

      Delete
  21. Am sorry. But what r consecutive unches? Can someone explain?

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    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  22. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  23. 10a TEARDROPS = Sobs
    Drink TEA
    Royal R
    Falls DROPS

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    Replies
    1. 6d TIMES = Circumstances
      overturned SEMITruck
      Insured contain. Indicator

      Delete
    2. 7d RESET = Reform
      Stop REST consuming E ecstasy

      Delete
  24. 10a TEARDROPS = Sobs
    R for Royal in drink TEA and falls DROPS
    (TEA)(R)(DROPS)

    ReplyDelete
  25. 10A-Heavy Metal Music-CD
    4A-Collateral-Security-Co(l)(late)ral

    ReplyDelete
  26. 12a SATIN = Polished finish
    Stain* wiping. as anind I believe

    ReplyDelete
  27. lead- heavy metal; Arrangements-music

    ReplyDelete
  28. 2D- To get Seles from Monica. it had to be "Monica,say". Otherwise no clue to connect.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Duly noted. As a proper noun it requires an indication.

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    2. I had another clue like this in a subsequent grid, which has also now been corrected. Thanks @Padmanabhan and @sree_sree for pointing it out.

      Delete
    3. I had another clue like this in a subsequent grid, which I have corrected. Thanks @Padmanabhan and @sree_sree for pointing it out.

      Delete
  29. 7d. RES(E)T= Reform
    stop = REST
    consuming ecstasy = E

    ReplyDelete
  30. Replacement for 6d

    24a ELECTRIC GUITARS
    GUITARS (air gust*)

    ReplyDelete
  31. 4a. CO(L)(LATE)RAL =Security
    student = L
    delayed= LATE
    ,plastered with = containment ins
    wine = CORAL

    ReplyDelete
  32. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  33. Anybody want to give the anno for 5D?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Replies
    1. A small story about the life of this clue. Initially I had written "Behold a female Pole's buns" for the anno {LO}{A}{F}{S}. However when typing it up I realized that the plural for buns is LOAVES, making the definition incorrect.

      So I reworded it to "Behold a female Pole's bums" for the same anno. But I felt that anatomically a person has a "bum" (singular) and not multiple bums.

      Finally I had to settle for "Endlessly flash old shapely bums".

      Delete
  35. Thanks Sathia. I certainly will.

    ReplyDelete
  36. If 9A is RA, what is the Anagrind? Electric?
    Why 'Heard on the radio'?

    ReplyDelete
  37. 4A- Is 'Coral' a synonym for wine? I think there is coral wine, but I have not come across coral as a synonym for wine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Coral describes a pinkish-red or pinkish-orange colour, similar to wine. Collins and some other sources list "wine" and "coral" as synonyms for red. I wasn't able to find it in Chambers, though. I guess I'll take the brick-bat in this case. I think it's an unusual usage even though it fit well into the surface.

      Delete
    2. Coral describes a pinkish-orange or pinkish-red colour. Collins and other sources list "coral" and "wine" as synonyms for "red". However Chambers does not. I think it's unusual enough to merit discussion. While "coral" seemed to fit well into the surface of the clue, I'm not sure I'd use the "coral" and "wine" as synonyms again.

      Delete
    3. Synonyms must be listed under same definition.
      Many words have more than one definition and each def could have synonyms.
      The synonyms from def 1 cannot be used to replace synonym from def 2.
      Red has one def for colour and second def for wine.

      Delete
    4. I understand your point regarding synonyms in general. I also concede that CORAL for "wine" is unusual.

      However, I must add that the words "red", "wine" and "coral" all have definitions as colours.

      Delete
    5. Again thats not the point.
      Red and yellow both are colours. But obviously they are not synonyms!!!

      Delete
    6. Wine-red and coral-red are different shades of red. Obv they are not synonyms. While "red, perhaps" could lead to both wine and coral.

      Delete
  38. 24A is a Reverse Anagram, not 9a. The anagrind is ELECTRIC while the fodder is AIR GUST. The definition is "heard on the radio?" indicating that electric guitars are something that might be heard on the radio.

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  39. Anno for 13D remains unsolved.

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  40. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  41. I didn't get the full anno either
    Sobriety - aa
    Retreating cop - poc
    Jerk - tic
    How do u get lyp?
    A(poc)a + lyp (??) + tic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LYP comes from "rude, cross" where PLY is a synonym for cross. I guess it is an indirect anagram.

      Delete
    2. Lip for rude but not sure what the homonym indicator was ?

      Delete
  42. I could not get 'Electric' as anagram indicator in the Chambers Crossword dictionary that I have or in Crossword unclued. I don't remember to have come across the same in THC.

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  43. Noted @Padmanabhan. I took liberty with that one.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I don't think cross can be synonym for ply. Ply is a layer,fold.pleat etc.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One can "ply" a river, for example.

      Delete
    2. That is travel and not necessarily cross.

      Delete
    3. Yes, you're correct. This one is not entirely fair to the solver.

      Delete
  45. I had used "electric" in the sense "having or producing a sudden sense of thrilling excitement." For example, "the concert had an electric atmosphere."

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  46. Many synonyms seem stretched to suit surfaces. Yes,surface is important but synonyms must easily lead from one to another directly.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Noted @Padmanabhan. I'll be combing through my subsequent grids with Chambers in hand.

      Delete
  47. Crossing has as synonym journey, passage etc. but not cross.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Electric can be explosive/volatile.
    But def is too vague esp when it has a meaning of indicating homophone in cryptics.

    ReplyDelete
  49. 9a falls under def by e.xample. such would req "could be one (member of the def class)" type of indicator. For eg etc....

    ReplyDelete
  50. Lessons learnt (for new setters):
    1. No indirect Anagrams
    2. No consecutive unches
    3. Grid to be symmetrical (both H and V)
    4.Indictor for proper nouns
    5. Careful about combined anagrams

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for compiling this list, RK.

      Regarding unches, I am still confused as to whether any consecutive unches at all are objectionable, or whether "more than 2 consecutive unches" are objectionable. On the one hand, it would mean 2 consecutive unches are ok, but 3 or more are unfair. On the other hand, it would mean that no consecutive unches at all are allowed.

      Delete
    2. 2 cannot be avoided. Initially it is better and safer to use any of the grids used here or in THC. Many variants are available and you can choose any of them that suits you.

      Delete
    3. Regarding unches - as per my understanding after checking several THC puzzles -
      no consecutive unches at all.
      Pl correct me if I am wrong.

      Delete
    4. Simple: one has to go by the publishers rules.
      No consequitive unches in THCC blog. THC till today is same.
      This group is predominently THC buffs with New learners/entrants.
      So we can have any amount of gen discussion but for this blog safe to take no consecutive unches at all.

      Delete
    5. I agree that publisher's rules must be followed. It would be rather useful for such rules to be expressed clearly in writing in advance by the publisher!

      Delete
    6. I don't think both H and V symmetry are required in THC grids. Only one of the 2 are required.

      Delete
  51. Is ", say" not sufficient indication in the case of 9A?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Grid construction has nothing to do with my instructions for Sunday Specials. No unches and the requirement of symmetry is standard for cryptic crosswords

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How universal is the standard of banning non-consecutive unches if the Times allows consecutive unches! Regarding symmetry, the grid here has 180-degree rotational symmetry but not 90-degree symmetry. What is the standard? It appears there is variability. I present the following excerpt from Shuchi's blog. https://www.crosswordunclued.com/2009/09/crossword-grid-symmetry.html

      "Rotational Symmetry

      All mainstream crossword grids have 180° rotational symmetry, also called two-way symmetry or half-turn symmetry. This means that when the grid is turned upside down, the black squares and white squares are in the same locations. Some grids also have 90° symmetry, which is four-way symmetry or quarter-turn symmetry.

      The rotational symmetry doesn't affect the solving in any way, just adds to visual appeal (except if you have a Poirot-esque obsession with order then it will help by not distracting you from the solving). It does help the setter in keeping other aspects of the grid consistent across the puzzle."

      In each case, I have noted your preference for publication in this blog and my subsequent grids remain unaffected.

      The reason I recommend explicitly stating it on your site is there seem to be a variety of standards. Even articles on popular crossword sites seem to indicate that there are no hard-and-fast global standards.

      Delete
    2. Especially as your instructions for Sunday Specials solicit experimentation by the setter, it would be appropriate to clarify that experimentation is unwelcome in the matters of 90-degree rotational symmetry and any consecutive unches.

      Delete
    3. I just said symmetry, I never said that it should be 180°. I am not aware if Times allows consecutive unches as I have never seen one there.

      Delete
  53. I love the song Paradise City. Thank you for putting it in the grid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cheers! I'm glad someone here likes the song.

      Delete
  54. Thanks Col. for publishing this puzzle and thanks to the blog followers for attempting and pointing out various improvements. I hope you'll find the next edition satisfactory.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Economizer,
    By the way the 'Guidelines' for Sunday Specials were framed by our very own Gridman who was a respected authority in the world of Crosswords.
    As regards your harping on the word 'experimentation' he had clarified that it was with reference to clue writing

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have read the page re: experimentation and understand your point that it is with regard to clue writing. Duly noted, sir.

      Delete
    2. Apocalypse is a biblical prophecy about the end of the world. + Cops and + jerk (tic)

      Delete
  56. To defend, yes. One might argue ones way out that its sufficient. After a long discussion, I would give up and agree.
    If it were fodder, say would be more than sufficient.
    But definitions should be as crisp as possible.
    So if its avoidable (if the clue is amenable to rephrasing), avoid it.

    ReplyDelete
  57. For someone interested , spoiler alert: very long and detailed summarization
    https://academic-accelerator.com/encyclopedia/cryptic-crossword

    ReplyDelete
  58. One other point Gridman had explained in a most simple way-
    One must be able to move continuously on white squares without a break moving only horizontally or vertically, the way we fill it up. In this grid,for example, the NE corner (right top) is isolated from the rest of the grid. It is not about symmetry.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Btw - this grid is neither horizontally symmetrical, nor vertically symmetrical. It is diagonally symmetrical.
      Hence works when u turn it upside down.

      Delete
    2. @Gowri I would trust your opinion on symmetry as you are an experienced Rangoli artist!

      Delete

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