Saturday, 8 September 2018

No 12417, Saturday 08 Sep 2018, Spinner


Across

1. Automated program grabs every single vote (6) BALLOT {B{ALL}OT}
4. Indebted to girl rebuilding after upheaval, having lost heart (8) GRATEFUL {G}{AFTER*}{UpheavaL}
10. Uncontained pressure’s tough on plantation (7) ORCHARD {fORCe}{HARD}
11. Overlooked situation of debt, after almost going broke (7) IGNORED {GOINg*}{RED}
12. Innkeeper’s more virtuous on having short drink (8) HOTELIER {HO{TEa}LIER}
13. Railway launched express in the middle of nowhere.. (6) REMOTE{Railway}{EMOTE}
15. ...train beginning to go off track (4) RAIL {tRAIL}
17. Blacklist disturbing riot cases (9) OSTRACISE {RIOT+CASES*}
20. Let up more crude oil (9) PETROLEUM {LET+UP+MORE*}
21. Coloured segment of candy edible (4) DYED (T)
24. Virtuoso playing sitar captivates model (6) ARTIST {SITAR*} around {T}
25. Man taking machinery, eliminating root of trouble by identifying cause, primarily? (8) MECHANIC {M{tECH}AN}{Identifying Cause} &lit
28. Document exposed accent somehow masked by deception (7) LICENCE {LI{aCCENt*}E}
29. Market reserves insecurity mostly for one who doesn’t stay for long (7) TOURIST {TOU{RISk}T}
30. Masterly woman wearing cap after mission’s upended (8) POLISHED {OP<=}{LI{SHE}D}
31. Hunted revolutionary is around as day begins (6) CHASED {CH{AS}E}{Day}

Down

1. ‘Right to interrupt’ inconveniences partners (8) BROTHERS {B{R}OTHERS}
2. Genuine Indian insurance provider for income tax (5) LICIT {LIC}{IT}
3. Priest knocking captain off boat (6) ORACLE {cORACLE}
5. Managed to catch Spinner in shower! (4) RAIN {RA{I}N}
6. Swing bowling? Needn’t catch every edge! (8) TENDENCY {NEEDN'T*}{Catch everY}
7. Frantically race to overcome freak, having started late! (9) FURIOUSLY {F{cURIOUS}LY}
8. Boy comes before daughter and ‘that woman without husband’ in pecking order (6) LADDER {LAD}{D}{hER}
9. Spinner not being there affected ladies very badly (9) ADVERSELY {LADiES+VERY*}
14. Must anger set right altercations? (9) ARGUMENTS {MUST+ANGER*}
16. Similar in detail, different when taking note (9) IDENTICAL {IN+DETAIL*} around {C}
18. Arranged to receive money essentially by small donations (8) PRESENTS {PRESE{moNey}T}{S}
19. Taught duet dance moves disregarding tradition, ultimately (8) EDUCATED {DUET+DAnCE*}
22. ‘Lady, cut and run!’ (6) GALLOP {GAL}{LOP}
23. Strong overcomes hard, nevertheless (6) THOUGH {T{H}OUGH}
26. Catches nothing, wins a series at the end! (5) NAILS {N{A}IL}{serieS}
27. Slender setter drinks beer regularly (4) MERE {M{bEeR}E}

Reference List

Girl=G, Model=T, Woman=She, Revolutionary=Che
Right=R, Indian insurance provider=LIC. Income tax=IT, Captain=C, Daughter=D, That woman=Her, Husband=H, Note=C, Small=S, Hard=H, Setter=Me

Colour/Font Scheme

Definition, Solution, Component letters, Embedded links, Anagram Indicator, C/C indicator, Reversal Indicator, Hidden word Indicator, Letter Pick indicator, Deletion Indicator, Homophone Indicator, Movement Indicator, Positional Indicator, Substitution, Indicator, Link/Connector, Extraneous

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60 comments:

  1. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 08:41

    This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  2. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 08:43

    Good mind exercise though I was curious about freak for a long time.

    ReplyDelete
  3. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 08:49

    25A) will machinery mean "tech" ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 08:58

      Machinery/technology: ways and means of getting a task done.

      Delete
    2. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 09:04

      is technology = tech?

      Delete
    3. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 09:13

      As per https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tech
      TECH is an abbreviation for technology/technical; shouldn't there be an indicator in the clue for such indirect abbreviations

      Delete
    4. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 10:28

      Like for example....
      Man using 40% machinery....
      instead of Man taking machinery

      Delete
    5. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 12:53

      Tech is an accepted standalone word and not an abbreviation in the traditional sense. I agree that it would make the clue easier to read but I'm not sure if fairness is compromised here. In cryptic crosswords, we generally substitute all kinds of abbreviations for entire words, so a shorter version of a word, which is recognised as a valid synonym, doesn't necessitate a qualifier , I feel.

      Delete
    6. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 13:27

      Thanks Spinner

      Delete
    7. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 16:46

      Tech is a standalone word denoting all computer devices (machinery).https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tech

      Delete
  4. Padmanabhan8 September 2018 at 08:59

    Would 'Mech' be better?
    Smooth as ever from Spinner- call it readable spin?!

    ReplyDelete
  5. Satyen Nabar8 September 2018 at 11:09

    Hi! Raising a query on a technical issue.

    Last Saturday, in my clue 'A poet is high on drugs (7)' Ramki pointed out to me the usage of 'ON' as connector between wordplay and definition, wondering if it was kosher. I admitted to him that it had unfortunately escaped my notice. Ramesh's blog had also omitted highlighting the word ON.

    In 10A clue today, 'Unconstrained pressure's tough on plantation', I see 'ON' used as the connector/link word between wordplay and defn and highlighted by Ramesh as such.

    Any opinions whether ON is appropriate as a connector?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Vasant8 September 2018 at 12:01

      As Shuchi writes in her blog on connectors, "There is no single correct answer. There's a lot of ground that fair setters will agree on but sometimes it's a matter of taste than rules for right-wrong"
      I would go with that for "on" too. A poet is high on drugs. I would say the surface makes lot of sense with On.
      No problem with 10A too. Tough on plantation sounds right to me.

      Delete
    2. Sumit8 September 2018 at 12:03

      ‘On’ doesn’t satisfactorily connect the wordplay components and the definition. WORDPLAY on DEFINITION doesn’t seem like a logical or meaningful representation.

      Delete
    3. Ramki Krishnan8 September 2018 at 12:21

      While "on" fits smoothly in the surface reading, I don't think it works in the cryptic reading as a connector between WP and def.

      Delete
    4. Kolluru Koteswara Rao8 September 2018 at 12:23

      In the light of the above, I would like to see your comments on this clue:

      Melody and noise on the right wavelength (5,2)
      I solved it in today's Guardian

      Delete
    5. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 12:32

      "on the right wavelength" is defn. here.
      IMU "on" is a part of definition

      Delete
    6. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 12:35

      on always misleads me.

      Delete
    7. Ramki Krishnan8 September 2018 at 12:58

      Correct - "on" is part of the def in the above clue and so it is not a problem.

      Delete
    8. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 13:02

      WP on Definition' is probably not the most lucid connector of the available connector options, agreed. I have pondered this problem of 'on' before - There is one sense I can think of where it can function as a connector.

      One of the listed definitions of 'on' is 'having as a target':

      Consider the following examples:

      An air raid on London.
      A bouncer barrage on Stuart Broad.


      So 'Wordplay' - having as a target - 'Definition' is the outcome.

      This still works for me, hence I continue to use it sparingly.

      Delete
  6. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 13:28

    My view:
    In 10a, 'on' just doesn't work as connector.
    In the cited clue "'A poet is high on drugs (7)" too 'on' doesn't work as connector.
    Since this is my view I may not have used 'on' as connector but I can't say so with certainty. If I have used, I must have nodded.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 13:34

    Alberich's wise words:
    "Let’s leave the rant there and sum up. In an ideal world, there wouldn’t be any need for link words. In practice, many clues do require some sort of link between wordplay and answer, and there are quite a few words in the English language which perform this task neatly. In a number of cases, these words are directional in the sense of [ANSWER] comes from [WORDPLAY] or [WORDPLAY] leads to [ANSWER]. Ignoring the directional nature of such link words does rather detract from the elegance and neatness of the clue, but sometimes the setter can get away with this if the clue is in other respects a very good one. It is wise, though, to take to heart the quote from Azed at the start of this piece and not insert redundant words into the clue just to make it flow better. Even if many solvers don’t notice (or care about) these last points, the setter's aim is to use the versatile and rich English language to provide cryptic instructions to the solver, and the more accurate those instructions are, the better all round!"
    -- from
    http://www.alberichcrosswords.com/pages/linkwds.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 14:45

      Thanks for sharing this enlightening summary.

      No linkers or extraneous words is ideal, but when they are needed, it is required that the directional nature be explainable.

      Delete
    2. Satyen Nabar8 September 2018 at 15:10

      Thanks indeed for the informative link CV Sir!

      Delete
  8. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 13:48

    Not happy with 'on' as linkword - but what about 'to' in 4 ac?
    2 down - the 'for' is extraneous? how is it a linkword?
    13 ac - Railway launched - means start of railway?
    31 ac -day begins - means start of day?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 14:36

      To is definitely extraneous there. I admit it doesn't convince, as a linker.

      For is definitely a valid linker , imo.

      13 & 31 - Yes, they are first letter selection indicators

      Delete
    2. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 14:50

      I do not think those indicators are grammatically correct to indicate letter picking

      Delete
    3. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 22:28

      I beg to differ - When you say grammar do you mean the English or the cryptic grammar? I don't see a problem with either.

      Scheme launched = Scheme started

      Just like we use X broken to indicate X is rearranged for an anagram, X launched indicates X started.

      If it's an issue of taste and preference, it is fine. But I don't see any grammatical issue here.

      Delete
  9. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 13:55

    For the following clues, this blogger has marked 'for' as extraneous in the last few weeks. Not so today!

    Gridman 12369 - 1 is gone for pronouncedly rough retort (7) OUTDOOR (1 is alfresco)
    Afterdark 12387 - Lady's grandmother's popular for hiding goat often as a prank (10) SHENANIGAN
    Lightning 12405 - Humble manner of saint (6) MODEST (of is marked extraneous in this clue)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 14:34

      There's a difference in the role 'for' plays in each of the clues.

      In 2D it is a link word, Definition for Wordplay is usually acceptable.

      So Gridman 12369 is the same case as this.

      In AfterDark 12387, the for comes in the middle of the wordplay and hence the possible reason for marking it as extraneous.

      Lightning 12405 - Here 'manner of saint' leads to 'modest'. Don't think of is extraneous.



      Delete
    2. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 14:45

      In 2D, the 'for' is between 2 charade components, not bw def and wordplay. Cannot see how it is not extraneous. Same with Lightning and Gridman clues too.

      Also def 'from' wordplay and wordplay 'for' def are only acceptable is what I think

      Delete
    3. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 22:35

      Your observation on 2D is right. For is indeed extraneous in this case. It is not a linker.

      For works as a linker in the cases you have mentioned above.

      Delete
  10. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 14:08

    Uncontained pressure’s tough on plantation (7) ORCHARD

    How is pressure the same as force? Isn't it force per unit area?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 14:11

      What is the problem?
      He put pressure on me to do the work.
      He put force on me to do the work.
      (Both sentences are not elegant, though.)

      Delete
    2. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 14:21

      chambers pressure:3 force or coercion;

      Delete
    3. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 14:47

      Maybe, from physics perspective they are different na?

      Delete
    4. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 15:11

      Crossword setters go by English usage, dictionaries, thesauruses, other reference works. Not by specialist knowledge.

      Delete
    5. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 18:14

      Dictionaries give credence to imprecise usage, but cannot call primary or secondary school physics as specialist knowledge.

      Delete
    6. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 20:27

      I give up. It is difficult to argue with you. You are entitled to hold on to your views and I shall never again enter into any debate with you.

      Delete
    7. Satyen Nabar8 September 2018 at 20:59

      Just saw this Esha...Whilst I noted your cogent observations about the first letter selection inds above as being grammatically incorrect (I completely concur though others may disagree) as well as read your comments on link words with great interest, your view on Force and Pressure is quite rib-tickling :)

      So let's see... When I am thinking of a syn for 'Stress' I should first remember Young's modulus and not use 'Strain' as a synonym because they are different concepts in physics?!

      What you seem to forget is stress and strain have meanings in regular usage outside the field of physics... and are very much synonyms.

      Whilst physics was my favourite topic in school and college, when you are giving me Tension, I dont think you are giving me mg +/- ma now, do I?

      Similarly, when you are Forcing or Pressuring me to accept your view, I don't quite imagine you are Forcing or Forcing me per unit area to accept your view!

      Hence your view on Force and Pressure not being synonyms because they are different concepts in physics, truly holds no water. But thanks for a good laugh at the end of a long day :)

      Delete
    8. Esha_iitm8 September 2018 at 21:16

      Thanks Doctor saab, nice to know I was able to give a good laugh to you :) But yes, I agree there are usages where force and pressure are same,, I retract my objection.

      Charutvasi jee no need to get so angry :) only objection was to the phrase "specialist knowledge" but that's OK, let's continue to indulge in healthy debates

      Delete
    9. sree_sree8 September 2018 at 21:21

      doc, think about it, when you take tension the "m" does change. the DELTA might be insignificant but it does change.

      Delete
    10. Satyen Nabar8 September 2018 at 21:32

      Prasad you rock! :) Esha, thanks for taking my comment in the light-hearted vein that was intended.

      Delete
    11. Srivathsan8 September 2018 at 22:24

      Noting your observation as to the first letter selection indicators being grammatically incorrect - Can you elaborate whether you mean the cryptic grammar or English grammar? I would like to understand your view on this!

      Delete
    12. Vasant8 September 2018 at 22:37

      Esha also rocks, Dr! "Dictionaries give credence to imprecise usage" Great insight, I should say!!

      Delete
    13. Satyen Nabar8 September 2018 at 22:51

      Hi Srivathsan, as I already specified, opinions will differ.

      This point has been raised by Bhavan many times before. You need to check several threads on this point here on THCC.

      Start of day, beginning of day, day's start, day at first... all unquestionably suggest grammatically picking first letter.

      Day begins/starts... is not grammatically accurate as 1st letter selection. For example 'Start playing' is not grammatically P for me. Start to play= P is correct grammatically.

      I understand there are differing opinions and respect that very much.

      Incidentally I love your cricket-related surfaces Spinner! They are an absolute delight. :)

      Delete
    14. Srivathsan9 September 2018 at 10:54

      While start X or X start is not grammatically acceptable to me either - X starts still works for me - I feel it falls in the same mould of cryptic grammar of using X breaks or X broke in anagrams. While broken X is what would be most ideal, this tense also lends itself to valid construction. I agree opinions differ, but I'd like to know if your stance is the same for anagram indicators that use the same principle.

      Thanks, I watch a lot of cricket, that seems to rub-off.



      Delete
    15. Satyen Nabar9 September 2018 at 12:01

      Ok I see and appreciate your point. Thanks for clarifying Srivathsan!

      Delete
  11. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 14:08

    Let a researcher take three crosswords - one each from Guardian, Independent and FT and examine then closely for any such so-called extraneous words and report back.

    No need to solve the. Get the clues and answers from online.

    Any volunteer?.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. KARTHIK8 September 2018 at 16:06

      I volunteer but need guidance on access to those CWs with soln

      Delete
  12. Chaturvasi8 September 2018 at 16:19

    Visit
    http://www.fifteensquared.net/
    When done, please send the write-up to me privately so I can vet and pass it before it is posted anywhere.

    ReplyDelete
  13. raju umamaheswar8 September 2018 at 22:21

    My, My ! that thin strand of hair has been made further threadbare by such a huge sledge-hammer by ye-all !I completed this crossword from the ONline version earlier and I found it quite do-able and enjoyable. Then I had a good night's sleep. Isn't that what cryptic crosswords are meant to be? to tense up and then relax ? Each compiler has his or her own style and each clue must be read contextually and solved to be enjoyed. I find Afterdark's clues to be very verbose and long-winded in the surface reading and yet I can solve them because my mind is attuned to his style. As opposed to this, Kishore's is easy on the eye and the mind and yet cryptic. Variety is of the essence and let's get them all in and enjoy.

    Parsing and analysing is indeed scientific but that is post-solving. Does a compiler keep all these in mind ? If he or she did, it will be a very drab solving ! So store away the sledge-hammer and and that strand of hair !

    ReplyDelete
  14. Unknown9 September 2018 at 01:51

    Is I=spinner?

    ReplyDelete

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