Managed to crack Skuldugger today in double quick time without a hiccough.
ACROSS
4 Rock music: primarily awful blare (6) MARBLE {M}{BLARE*}
9 Object used chiefly in hold-ups! (4) BELT [CD]
10 Heavy, metal band employed as instrument of torture (4,6) IRON MAIDEN [DD] I have a couple of cassettes of theirs. Must check if they will still play!
11 Queer-looking? Stifle it reflexively (6) ITSELF*
12 Well-rounded, we’d gone out and about to get displayed (8) UNROLLED weLL-ROUNDEd*
13 Found vigorous enjoyment took the edge off hidden wound (9) ESTABLISH {rE{STAB}LISH}
15 Vessel, seaworthy even after a century (4) RAFT cRAFT
16 Revolutionary fruitcakes take your breath away (4) SNUB <= (Addendum - STUN <= - See comments)
17 See trivia as a hodgepodge of sorts (9) VARIETIES*
21 After children migrated, West European got doubly large
improvement on knocker (8) DOORBELL {DOORB<=}{E}{L}{L}
22 “…happens to belong to us,” admits Cuban counter-espionage chief
(6) OCCURS {O{C}{C}URS}
24 Quirky musical acquires strange image (10) SIMULACRUM {MUSICAL*}{RUM} Forgettable new word for me
25 Finished a number of deliveries (4) OVER [DD] I liked the white towel in the toon!
26 Stared openmouthed with surprise at first, then caught one’s
breath (6) GASPED {GA{S}PED}
27 Design vain venture boasts (6) INVENT [T]
DOWN
1 Career actress regularly produces new work (7) CREATES {CaReEr AcTrEsS}
2 Adjusting nut that is loose (5) UNTIE {NUT*}{IE}
3 Wicked king imbibed enough booze to make one drunk (7) SKINFUL {S{K}INFUL}
5 Wonder at a heartless, stupid fury (6) ADMIRE {A}{DiM}{IRE}
6 Sick in the brain, twisted, extremely deviant, but magnificent
(9) BRILLIANT {BR{ILL}IAN*}{T}
7 Drunken melee at noontime leads to fire, perhaps (7) ELEMENT {MELEE*}{N}{T}
8 Regularly goes rambling where criminals hang (6,7) ROGUES GALLERY* In army units, the area in the officers mess where photographs of ex CO's are displayed is also informally known as the rogues gallery.
14 Blue-coloured rings you discovered inside marine complexes
(9) AQUARIUMS {AQUA}{RI{U}MS}
16 Silence due to performance (7) SHOWING {SH}{OWING}
18 Superhero who might become rusty? (4,3) IRON MAN [CD]
19 Grave veterans leaving the front broken (7) EARNEST vETERANS*
20 Bounder thrown into lake for some time (6) DECADE {DE{CAD}E}
23 Not far away, in the outskirts of Cologne, the sun rises (5) CLOSE {Col{LOS<=}ognE}
16 Revolutionary fruitcakes take your breath away (4) SNUB <=
ReplyDeleteSTUN <-
8 Regularly goes rambling where criminals hang (6,7) ROGUES GALLERY* In army units, the area in the officers mess where photographs of ex CO's are displayed is also informally known as the rogues gallery.
ReplyDeleteThe Govt. seems to be doing the same with chiefs. Remembered VB.
16a I took this as STUN, NUTS<
ReplyDeleteDug deep into my skull to crack this ! SIMIULACRUM is a new one & DOORBELL got knocked well when the brood got back ! Couldn't but 5 down at the 6 down construction of both the clues.
ReplyDeleteAside, any comment on the 1 across 16 across given to MMS (MUTE_MOUN SINGH) by the Heir-now -there and everywhere -apparent? Why does he have to be challengingly roll up his sleeves every now and then? Bhaiyya, yeh toh hai mera body language to scare off the NAMO- naraharaya !!
Re: 21a, I felt a knocker and doorbell are not the same, though they may serve similar purposes.
ReplyDeleteThe def is 'improvement on knocker' which a doorbell is.
DeleteNice puzzle from Skulldugger.
Thanks, I get it now
Delete24 Quirky musical acquires strange image (10) SIMULACRUM {MUSICAL*}{RUM} Forgettable new word for me
ReplyDeleteZu befehl, Herr Oberst. Already forgotten.
"Zu befehl, Herr Oberst." Is it Konkini ?
DeleteMB, That's German
DeleteZu befehl = At your command
Herr = Sir
Oberst = Colonel
Thanks, Oberst Herr !
Delete10 Heavy, metal band employed as instrument of torture (4,6) IRON MAIDEN [DD]
ReplyDeleteQuote from Wiki:
It is believed to be fictional, although examples have been created for display.
Good one from SK.
ReplyDelete4 A beginning and 10 A are music to my ears (not torture).
8 Regularly goes rambling where criminals hang (6,7) ROGUES GALLERY*
ReplyDeleteMeaning is not conveyed here. Mugshots are not criminals. Maybe 'feature' or 'appear' or the like might have been better.
Raghu,
DeleteDidn't get your point.
A rogue gallery is a place where photographs of criminals are displayed/hung. So why is the meaning not conveyed?
I meant that the photos hang and not criminals literally.
ReplyDeleteNot sure whether 'hang about' also, would have been proper
DeleteFor 20D is Dee a river or a lake?....I always thought that Dee was a river.......Can anyonethrow some light on this?....Though overall was a nice crossword with some real clever ones like BELT SKINFUL & ESTABLISHED
ReplyDeleteYou are right Dee is a river and not a lake. Don't know though if there is some obscure lake named Dee
DeleteContrasting use of acrostics:
ReplyDelete7 Drunken melee at noontime leads to fire, perhaps (7) ELEMENT {MELEE*}{N}{T}
Maybe noontime should have had a hyphen or a space, or else we don't get NT.
22 “…happens to belong to us,” admits Cuban counter-espionage chief (6) OCCURS {O{C}{C}URS}
counter-espionage has a hyphen and yet we select C and not CE (as it's one word).
Can we also pick C E?
I think Noon is N and time is T. Perhaps that's what the setter intended.
DeleteAs regards 22, not too sure. Hyphenated words could be treated as a single element I guess. In telescopic clues, I've seen hyphenated words treated so to give a feeling that the part before hyphen is not extraneous.
At last Skulldugger has lowered the bar by a couple of knotches ! A mix of easy, medium and tough clues enabled me to get pass marks ! For me anything more than 50% means "Pass Marks" :)
ReplyDeleteMy score today is 70%
Typo : PS read NOTCHES for Knotches
DeleteNice one from Skulldugger.
ReplyDeleteEnjoyable and fairly neat crossword this. No real issues
ReplyDeleteI wish Skulldugger would maintain the same standard(of today) in his future offerings too, keeping in view not only professional solvers but also average solvers. Quite an enjoyable puzzle.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Skulldugger.
I do not know anybody who gets paid for solving crosswords. So there are no professional solvers here. Just that some people like them 'harder' and some like them 'easier'.
DeleteOK Suresh garu, agreed there are no professional solvers here :) But am sure our blog is a home(sweet home) for veteran/average/amateur solvers
Deleteunder the care of Col.Deepak Gopinath Sir. Yes, you are right "some like it 'harder' and some others like it 'easier' and I like a puzzle containing a
mix of both, that way everyone's desire is fulfilled. Hope Skulldugger would note this point. It's just a suggestion only and not a serious demand.
It's a good thing that most of the setters are satisfying the wishes of all categories of solvers I,m talking about. Here and there, some real challenging
puzzles crop in, but I take them in my stride and move ahead taking the pluses from such puzzles.
Typo : Please read "Crop-up" for "Crop-in"
DeleteRather straightforward today as many have observed.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit I don't quite understand the anno for 15A. And a raft is generally not considered a vessel I think.
@ Bhala,
DeleteI was also a bit confused initially until I found the definition to be 'seaworthy" ( though strangely placed in the middle of the clue and not "vessel'
CRAFT (=vessel) minus C = RAFT, which is seaworthy.
ReplyDeleteActually from the reading of the clue the answer should have been CRAFT. It remains seaworthy even if you remove the 'C'.
DeleteYes, I think there is a problem in the construction of the clue, though subtle.
We had a clue from Scint. with the def in the middle.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. But Seaworthy does not mean Raft
DeleteOn second reading the clue would lead to
Deleteraft. But Bhala's query is valid.
I don't see why a raft cannot be considered as a vessel? Chambers defines a raft as 'a flat structure of logs, etc. for support or for conveyance on water.
DeleteThor Heyerdhal crossed the Pacific from S America to the Polynesian islands on his raft 'Kon Tiki'
Well, a vessel is considered to be a large boat or a ship. But, actually Col, you touch upon the very fact that the raft by itself is seaworthy, with out without the C.
DeleteThen we have the 'parts of speech' problem (I don't but it was raised recently). Seaworthy by itself cannot mean craft, so technically it should be 'one that is seaworthy' or similar.
A lot of hair splitting (hair = hot + air) and somewhat regretting having started this!!
Yes a raft is a vessel Deepak. Bhala, Dictionaries do give this meaning. And Vessel is the definition, not Seaworthy.
DeleteDo not worry about hair splitting. It can only lead to more hair on the head, I hope.
This is how I see it
DeleteVessel = Definition = RAFT (A Raft is a seaworthy vessel)
seaworthy even after a century = Even after adding a C it remains seaworthy
I have no worries of hair splitting like Suresh et al., I have plenty on my head!
Delete...how I envy you Sir ! I've a couple of strands still left on my pate !!
DeleteCraft is a vessel but not raft. I looked up the Chambers Crossword Dictionary (3rd edition - the latest one). It does not list 'raft' under the entry VESSEL
DeleteRamanan,
DeleteAs per Chambers dictionary
Vessel - a craft or structure for transport by water
Raft - a flat structure of logs, etc. for support or for conveyance on water
That should settle the issue
...boss is always right ! :)
DeleteA petty thing I noticed in 23d: "............. in the outskirts of ...........". It should have been " on the outskirts of". I am sure the setter must have been in an 'in-versus-on' quandary while setting the clue: "on the outskirts of Cologne " might otherwise prompt solvers to place LOS (= rev of SOL) before CE rather than inside CE.
ReplyDeleteTo set at rest any confusion, the clue could have been better rephrased thus: " Not far away, the outskirts of Cologne trap the rising sun".
In that case, the surface takes a beating. Even with poetic license, that seems like non-sense. (No offence intended.)
DeleteIf you want dawn:
Not far way, the sun rises in Central Europe.
If you want Cologne's outskirts:
Not far away, the Spanish was trapped within the limits of Cologne.
Today's puzzle has 10A+25A+18D, may not be in a 1A way ! My doubt is what was Margaret Thatcher before she became an Iron Lady P.M of U.K ?
ReplyDelete@Ramanan,
ReplyDeleteIn the outskirts has been used CWs in THC as well as The Times. Here are three samples from The Times:
18 Spiritual renewal Dan held up in outskirts of Redditch? (7)
17 In outskirts of Redbridge, turning to join train (7)
18 Plant of reasonable size in outskirts of Kirovograd (8)
I however think 'limits' may have been better.
@Raghunath,
ReplyDeleteYes, you are right. I have come across it in The Guardian puzzles as well.
But what is surprising ( or rather shocking) is the similarity of Skulldugger's clue with Brummie's clue that appeared in The Guardian (TG) in Jan 2009. Both are reproduced below:
TG Prize Crossword Puzzle 24605: " Sun up in the outskirts of Cologne (5)"
THC 10890 by Skulldugger: " Not far away, in the outskirts of Cologne, the sun rises (5)"
Is it a sheer coincidence? I hardly think so. Would Skulldugger enlighten us?
A setter who writes 29 odd original clues in his puzzle decides that he can't think of one more, so just takes one from elsewhere? It is a coinicidence. But if you already 'hardly think so', I doubt any comment from Skulldugger is going to make you think otherwise.
DeleteThe likes of Raghunath and Kishore will vouch for the existence of such coincidences over the years across different puzzles (sometimes such clues appearing on the same day) like ET and THC or NIE or Guardian etc.
Since you are the one who thinks it is not a coincidence and in effect accusing Skulldugger of stealing a clue, I would think it is up to you to prove that he did.
We need to be surprised only when one clue in a publication is exactly the same as in another. We may even be shocked as Ramanan is but we cannot with any certainty say that one compiler has plagiarised another.
DeleteYou will remember that a clue in a THC was word for word the same in a Times (London) crossword of a later date. Was the Times setter lifting from TH? Hardly! I took this to a well-known UK-based messageboard but there was not a murmur from any other member, though many top-notch UK setters are known to visit that forum.
(contd.)
In the instance that Ramanan quotes only the idea is the same. The wording differs.
DeleteWhat's wrong? In any case the faintest suggestion of lifting doesn't arise.
Sometimes the possibilities of a word/phrase breakup may be limited and with that two setters may write similar clues. Sometimes the possibilities may be many but two setters using the same software might have eyed the same breakup and written similar clues.
So we have to be very careful if we are suggesting plagiarism on the part of any setter.
Well, we did that in the case of a former setter but that was because of the vast difference between clues in the same puzzle. The lack of uniform quality was suspect. In that setter's work some clues (of words in the perimeter of the grid or long entries) were brilliant and some were defective. There we did not even have similar clues in others' work to cite as Ramanan does but still we were thinking of plagiarism.
(may continue)
I have read in international crossword forums and also in some crossword manuals that the presence of a single similar clue in two crosswords (by which I mean similarly worded/phrased clues and NOT clues differently worded but having the same word breakup) is not reason enough to bring a charge of lifting.
DeleteIf there are multiple instances then the question of copyright violation might crop up.
In forums that solve and blog UK puzzles bloggers often recall similar clues from other puzzles but there was no suggestion of lifting.
(may continue)
Finally - Ramanan was shocked and he thinks that it was more than a coincidence.
DeleteWhat's wrong? Why should a setter necessarily confess to having read a clue. borrowed the idea and rewrote it?
I would be interested to know what other solvers think on this touchy subject.
Come on Ramanan use your grey matter I say. Even if Skuldugger were to lift that clue (and I do not agree that he did) as you suspect, I am sure he would be smart enough to change the name of the city 'Cologne' and select one from Coimbatore, Carthage etc the possibilities are unlimted. Just because the word Cologne and Sun appear in the two clues does not make it a lift. Please be more prudent when raising such uncalled for allegations.
DeleteRamanan I however appreciate your Sherlock Holmes like skills in trying to link two clues which have a gap of almost 6 years between their appearance.
Was it here that we had discussed once plagiarism and what constitutes it? I personally feel that cryptic crosswords being what they are, there could be a sense of de' javu creeping in the minds of some solvers who have been at it for years and years and several ones at that.Lifting off word for word or phrase for phrase may amount to plagiarism , but adaptation or improvement of an original idea by rephrasing cannot amount to it. Why not? How then can standards be set or evolution take place? Some ideas can get generated earlier in history and evolution and developments of such ideas into some thing better cannot amount to plagiarism.If
ReplyDeletesome new thought and fresh ideas have been incorporated, they aree most welcome. That is the reason why I love cryptic crossword compilers coming out with new twists and turns and unknown words and phrases. It is , like any other science, a never- ending nerve-racking learning process. Can any seasoned solver ever claim that he has '' been there, done that'' at any given time ? So many varied permutations and combinations of original clues can still be made and are indeed welcome. These may turn out to be new to some solvers and for other seasoned ones ''a piece of cake'' !!
Hence, the more , the merrier and and may the tribe of compilers grow to rebottle old bouquets into new flavours, nourish and flourish !!
I used to run a series tagged "ditto" on Crossword Unclued in its early days, in which I posted clues by different setters that looked similar. I don't post those now as the instances of ditto are too many to be post-worthy. If a large portion of a setter's work matches with another source and there is a marked deviation in quality, then such suspicions may have some basis. One clue with a similar idea as another = copying? By that yardstick it won't be a surprise if all setters get accused of plagiarism.
ReplyDelete@ Bhavan, CV, DG & Shuchi
ReplyDeleteI brought up this point not to see the setter crucified but to show the similarity of the clues in theme and wordplay except for the syntax of the clues. I do know about similar instances in other parts of the world. In fact, a year ago, I raised in one of the UK forums the recycling of a particular clue in a Times crossword and I met with generic responses to the effect that it was quite possible for setters to reuse their earlier clues to meet the deadline for going go the press.
(contd.....)
I do know of a UK setter who regularly recycles some of his clues - but then they are spaced far apart from each other. Previously when newspapers were binned one could not keep track of the repetitions. Even with book collections of crosswords the repetitions cannot be easily detected. But now with the Internet, blogs that give clue texts along with answers and the site search facility, it is possible to cite duplicates.
ReplyDeleteRamanan
ReplyDeleteIt was the following sentence of yours that provoked the Comments:
"Is it a sheer coincidence? I hardly think so. Would Skulldugger enlighten us? (Emphasis mine)
I am afraid you weren't merely mentioning similarities in clues.
CV,
ReplyDeleteI said I hardly think so, because the solution, the key words used and the word play were all similar except that the syntax was different.. But I took a contrary view to the 'coincidence ' theory which I am sure you may not agree. I thought the setter could have employed different key words and a different wordplay to clue " Close". I am explaining my point why I said so. I respect your and other views as you are entitled to as much as I am entitled to my contrarian view.
The bloggers of that forum even suggested that watchful eyes of crossword editors and discerning solvers would serve as a deterrent to a deviant setter.
@DG,
ReplyDeleteI am no Sherlock Holmes. I am not good at investigation. When I saw the particular clue of Skulldugger's, it rang me a bell of Brummie's clue in a puzzle collection book that I had gone about solving a week before. So my memory is short - just a week old, not 4 years. Setters can take a cue from past clues, improve them with cosmetic changes, repackage them and sell them to a wider audience claiming a coincidence warranty ! Is it an acceptable practice? I know for sure there will be a deluge of posts why it should not be.
CV, DG, Bhavan & Shuchi,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your posts sharing your view points and I appreciate your time. Before closing this post, let me quote Jonathan Crowther ( Azed of The Observer): " Good setters try to avoid reusing old clues, however proud of them they may be, and they should also not reuse words too often. Guarding against this is not easy and inevitably, there being no copyright on good ideas, similar or identical clues to the same word will recur, but I do make a conscious effort not to repeat myself and think other setters should do likewise".
You are certainly entitled to contrarian views. Azed's quote is correct and it is possible for a setter to take that particular care to the extent possible.
DeleteBut you surely can't be extrapolating that and asking a setter to avoid clues similar to other setter's clues right?
I doubt if Skuldugger or any setter has such access or time to spend. Every time we fill a word in a grid we not only check our own list of clues but trawl through the internet and visit a variety of sites (15 sq or Guardian or Times et al) just to make sure the clue idea I have isn't already used? That's impractical. I know I don't have any such access to my fellow setters at THC, much less The Guardian and Times puzzles/setters.
What I take objection to in your original post is the insinuation that a clue was copied. It was based on nothing but your assumption. For all we know Skuldugger wasn't even aware of that puzzle from Brummie. Why not give him the benefit of doubt instead of erring on the side of false accusation?
Bhavan,
DeleteI wasn't extrapolating the standard expected of setters and I only reproduced the views of a well-respected compiler on the expected standards. It is for setters to live up to it or not.
I agree it is impractical for setters like Skuldugger and others to check every available source while compiling puzzles. I raised a doubt on coincidence when the keywords and the wordplay were similar in both clues except for syntax. I could have ignored it as yet another instance of coincidence but I didn't for reasons stated above. It may take a while for me to reconcile to that fact.
On a larger scale, where is the drawing line between those with a genuine coincidence syndrome and those taking advantage of it? Solvers seem to have no say in the whole scheme of things as their doubts/ concerns would be brushed aside.
advantage of it?
Completely agree with you Bhavan. It is way too time consuming to go check and see if your clue is already out there.
DeleteIn fact, I have asked this same question myself - once I have set a puzzle and submitted it and then happen to come across a clue which is quite similar to what I wrote - should I change it (or) should I leave it the way it is ?
I for one, have taken the view that having constructed the clue myself without looking at the other person's clue is good enough for me not to change it.
Typo: "advantage of it?" appears twice. Ignore the second one.
Delete@VP, your view is absolutely spot on.
DeleteThe coicidence happened to me with the Times clue where I was first, but it has happened again now in the reverse. Ten days after I submitted my next puzzle with a clue:
Natural at weaving (9)
I had come across a similar clue from the NYT Sunday magazine:
Natural at spinning (9)
It is not very surprising that such a clue existed already. The word is ripe for such a clue to make it an &lit.
I could have written to Sankar with a substitution, but decided against it for the very reason you mention - independent discovery.
On a larger scale, where is the drawing line between those with a genuine coincidence syndrome and those taking advantage of it?
DeleteWhat do you propose be done?
Like CV and Shuchi mentioned, there was a setter with whom it was no longer a coincidence. Over a period of time and puzzles, there was a pattern of brilliant and deplorable clues co-existing in the same puzzle. Which further led to the discovery that said setter was milking the efforts of a particular UK setter vis-a-vis the excellent clues. It was brought to the notice of the management and that setter no longer appears in TH.
Solvers seem to have no say in the whole scheme of things as their doubts/ concerns would be brushed aside.
If after all this discussion you still think solvers views are brushed aside, I don't know what else to say! You can always write to The Hindu mentioning the coincidence and expressing your doubts.
Azed's quote is from his essay "The Art of the Crossword Setter".
ReplyDeleteRamanan,
ReplyDeleteI shall try to address the issues you have raised but that will be under a post in this blog tomorrow or so.
Meanwhile, I would be interested to know which UK-based forum that you are referring to. 15sqd? It is one where I blogged and commented quite frequently but I have not been visiting it of late.
I did realise that you must have solved the clue recently in a book collection or from a paper's archives.
Decades ago in THC when Adm Katari was the sole setter a clue was a rehash of another that I had just read in D St P Bernard's book on the crossword and I wrote to the paper.
@ CV
ReplyDeleteVery kind of you. I look forward to your post in the days to come.
After reading all the pros and cons, I can only say: There is no invention , only discovery !!!
ReplyDeleteAs long as the setters keep setting, we can keep solving-- each puzzle as a challenge , to learn and be happy !!
Raju, you are right. Setters rarely invent anything. They discover new connections between existing words.
Delete