Learnt some new words today and found wanting for some Anno's.
ACROSS
6 Measure of viscosity in bearing (5) POISE [DD]
7 He was Godless- in his heart composed (8) PAGANINI {PAGAN}{IN}{
10 Limited choice- has to survive with something artificial (7) PLASTIC {P{LAST}IC
11 Highly revered Miss Moore rejected pet (7) DEMIGOD {DEMI}{GOD<=}
12 Fastness of dialect used (7) CITADEL*
13 Sort of sausage to keep one happy (7) ASSUAGE*
14 Letter saying it's used in the timber yard (8,3) CIRCULAR SAW {CIRCULAR} {SAW}
19 French nobleman forced Tom into crime (7) VICOMTE {VIC{TOM*}E}
21 Endless money poured in the drink- to put it in a poetic form (7) SESTINA {SE{
23 Sensible to keep out such a habit (7) SOUTANE {S{OUT}ANE} New word for me
26 Come into building sporting a smile or a frown (8) EMOTICON*
DOWN
1 Huge boat for a stunt (8) GIGANTIC {GIG}{ANTIC}
2 Won over setter, who is oddly, retired (6) BESTED {BE{S
3 A religious practice of producing nectar (10) APICULTURE {A}{PI}{CULTURE} Practice on double duty
4 The old summoned when powerless (4) AGED
5 Hard to understand or imagine headless characters (6) ENIGMA
6 Very quick to capture a pawn and pontificate (6) PAPACY {P{A}{P}ACY}
8 Siemens engineered scourge (7) NEMESIS*
9 Run in stockings, cutting tailend off snake (5) ADDER
13 People's protest makes horse jump (10) ARABSPRING {ARAB}{SPRING}
15 Safe place for some of the butter, perhaps (7) RAMPART {RAM}{PART}
16 Panel's version- Isaac Newton's not sane (8) WAINSCOT {I
18 In the fence, two days in a row (6) PADDLE {PA{DD}LE}
20 Key game, but lousy (6) CRUMMY {C}{RUMMY}
22 Venerated Bolshevik under fire, it's said (6) SACRED (~sack){SAC}{RED}
24 Inscribe picture on church (4) ETCH {ET}{CH}
GRID
21 Endless money poured in the drink- to put it in a poetic form (7) SESTINA {SE{lesS}{TIN}A} Not sure if anno is correct
ReplyDeleteThe drink: SEA. S is from end lesS. Money: TIN
SE(S)(TIN)A.
I had a doubt on DRINK = SEA
Delete5 (the drink) colloq the sea. From Chambers.co.uk
DeleteIn 22d: I don't think SACK ~ SAC. Sounds like Sake.
ReplyDeleteSACK is right. It means to fire or dismiss from employment.
DeleteWhat I meant was Sacred sounds like SAKE RED and not Sack red.
DeleteI don't think that matters.
DeleteSac and sack are homophones, it' s agreed.
Bolshevik gives red.
These two components are added to get the answer word SACRED.
How this word is pronounced is outside of the clue.
I was always under the impression that hp should be in conjunction with how the whole word is pronounced
DeleteI have given my opinion.
DeleteBut that shouldn't be taken as dictum.
I am open to the views of others who too can come up with theirs if my view is different from theirs.
Interesting discussion. I'd expect the pronunciation of the component SAC (~sack (fire)) to match with the SAC of SACRED, else the wordplay is two steps away, like an indirect anagram.
DeleteThanks for the inputs.
DeleteI still stick to my view.
SACRED is not derived as a whole word from a homophone for sac-Red. (in which case we might expect fire = sack = sac)
The hom ind is only for sac/sack.
As per WP, we place RED (from Bolshevik involving no homophone) under SAC(~sack) and get SACRED.
The question of how 'sacred' is pronounced doesn't arise at all.
For my two bits worth, I tend to agree with CV. This device can be used even in containment or reversal, not necessarily only in charade, in which case the point wouldn't arise at all. Anyway empirical evidence should surely be available.
DeleteSome brilliant clues today, with PAPACY eliciting a big smile.
On second thoughts, I think I have to change my opinion - precisely because it is part of a charade. If it had not been a homophone, but something like 'endlessly' it would be OK I guess
DeleteI am not changing my opinion.
DeleteEven after reconsideration in the light of Bhala's second post.
Our only consideration must be the placement of hom sig.
ThIs comes after 'fire'.
This word is syn of 'sack'. Which gives the sound of 'sac'. How do you pronounce 'lac' even when you lack that much?
Under 'sac' comes 'red' which is not from any sound.
One more try CV Sir :-) Then we can agree to disagree.
DeleteSACRED is not derived as a whole word from a homophone for sac-Red. (in which case we might expect fire = sack = sac) The hom ind is only for sac/sack.
What would lead the solver unambiguously from SACK to SAC? Unlike other clue types in a combination clue, the homophone segment has neither direct definition nor precise letters. The only guide is the pronunciation in the answer. If we remove that guide too, aren't we making things unfair? In this case we're expecting the solver to get the intended synonym of FIRE, then find a combination of letters (can't rule out partial non-word homophones either) sounding only like *that* synonym without even the assurance that this undefined segment would sound like the answer.
The homophone indicator( it's said) is used only for fire= SACK ~ SAC
DeleteIt's clear from the clue: 'Venerated Bolshevik under fire, it's said' .
The homophone ind. is not for 'Venerated' .
I believe that should have come clear in what I wrote earlier.
DeleteForget the quality of the following clue which I am tossing off for illustrative purpose only:
The venerated said: "Fire the Bolshevik"
If so, one could argue 'venerated' is pron'd sake-red and the hom leads to sac(k)red. .
OTOH, the WP of the published clue is clear that RED is under a hom of fire (sack/sac).
Sac is not just a string of letters that sounds like sack - in pron. the two are or may be similar.
That is why I am saying from the beginning that the pron. of the answer word SACRED does not enter our discussion at all.
Thanks for your comment, ranger. It's a part homophone - no two views about it. My point is: if the part homophone does not match the answer in pronunciation, it's unfairly indirect for the solver.
DeleteMy point exactly Shuchi! The homophone ind. is for the part of the answer and not the full answer. The confusion seems to be because it's a single word answer and not a double word answer as in the following.
DeleteGuardian Cryptic 26540 by Picaroon.1 AC.
Delay for audience, with cheers backing singer, one ditching the stones( 6,7) for WEIGHT WATCHER. Weight~wait W+ TA(<)+ CHER
Here too one has to get the intended synonym of 'delay'
@Ranger,
DeleteIn the Guardian clue "weight" in the answer & "wait" (Delay) in the clue sound the same. Whereas in today's clue SACK RED doesn't sound like SAKE RED or SACRED. I don't think there's any confusion. But to be fair to you in Shuchi's blog on partial homophones the clue for SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST using SIR VIV as SUR VIV is similar today's clue.
Could not get a number of answers. Tough one with all those new words.
ReplyDeleteIn 13d Comment you meant to say "enu".
ReplyDeleteYes, now corrected
DeleteHad a real Monday Morning Blues today! Tough puzzle. :-(
ReplyDeleteA lesson in multiple topics.Tough nut to crack.One bright spot is the emoticon displayed by Col.! It really cheers up.
ReplyDeleteIn 3d I don't think 'practice' does double duty.
ReplyDelete'Producing nectar' by itself can give the reqd word, I think.
From 'practice' we get 'culture'.
Actually Apiculture is the management and study of honeybees.
Delete3D- Religious is pious. But Pi?
ReplyDeleteWhen in doubt I always refer to Chambers for any standard abbreviation;
Deletehttp://www.chambers.co.uk/search.php?query=pi&title=21st
Thank you Raghu. I will follow this in future.
Delete