Across
9. Grant of a silver vessel earlier held by English (7) APANAGE {A}{PAN}{AG}{E}10. In the rear portion of souk, Noel met the Spanish engineer to get an instrument (7) UKELELE {
11. Right to send Duke out and get George in return (7) REGRESS {RE(-d+G)RESS}
12. Forget king in news, union leader is the heading (7) UNLEARN {U
13. In a bank, you could be the one at doorstep forced to collect interest (9) DEPOSITOR {DOORSTEP*} around {I}
15. Key to greet in capital (5) DELHI {DEL}{HI}
16. More difficult to replace one with another employee (7) STAFFER {ST(-i+A)FFER}
19. Inspection chamber in homeland almost demolished (7) MANHOLE {HOMELAN
20. Form of transport I take to cross river (5) METRO {ME}{T{R}O}
21. In New Delhi, inscriptions are gleaned assiduously to eulogise leaders and landmark (5,4) INDIA GATE (Acrostic)
25. Bait spread in the shade to trap frequent visitor (7) HABITUE {H{BAIT*}UE}
26. Measuring instrument found in possession of Gurugram meterologist (7) AMMETER (T)
28. Landmark determined by radio frequency, around eastern direction, around Troy nearly (3,4) RED FORT {R{E}{D} F}{TRO
29. Measure of lotion prepared by hakim essentially (7) KILOTON {
Down
1. Strict boss armtwists rookie on duty at the beginning (6) RAMROD {ARM*}{R2. Unforeseen obstacle leading to shortfall of labourer at Gulf state (4-2) HANG-UP {HAN
3. Lately, sweetheart uses cocktail to cook (4) BAKE {BA{
4. Successfully reaches difficult targets, overcoming resistance (4,2) GETS AT {TA
5. Two rugs woven by maiden spread over an area in city (8) GURUGRAM {RUG*}{RUG*}{A}{M}
6. Perhaps plaster, to cure bone and all (10) BELLADONNA {BONE+AND+ALL*}
7. Small time grocer, heading oil distribution in harem (8) SERAGLIO {S}{ERA}{G
8. Astronomical term or name devised at MIT is revolutionary, first on earth (4,4) MEAN TIME {NAME*}{MIT<=}{E
14. Leading salesperson, many times gets into trouble passing over work as an easy choice (4,6) SOFT OPTION {S
16. Plant producing surface-to-air missiles is on lease; admits President (8) SAMPHIRE {SAM}{P}{HIRE}
17. Protein produced by indiscriminate hybridisation results in the birth of Irish (8) ANTIBODY {ANTIBODY+IRISH*}={HYBRIDISATION} Not sure how to colour code this one
18. Regular army soldiers possess one topi, sword primarily with clothing (8) RAIMENTS {R}{A}{I}{MEN}{T
22. Skirmish in a party in Tamil Nadu's about an area in the capital (6) DWARKA {D{WAR}K}{A}
23. When say Puducherry, arrests top tipplers at the onset of elections, it’s seen as prudent (6) ASTUTE {AS}{tT
24. Chief doctor finally managed to reach emergency room for duty (6) ERRAND {ER}{RAN}{D
27. Beginning of the month, everyone is at shopping centre (4) MALL {M
Reference List
Silver=Ag, English=E, The Spanish=El, Engineer=E, Duke=D, George=G, News=NN (New=n), Interest=I, Key=Del, I=Me, River=R, Radio Frequency=RF, Eastern=E, Direction=D
Gulf=G, State=UP, Resistance=R, Maiden=M, Area=A, Small=S, Time=Era, Work=Op, Surface-to-air missiles=SAM, President=P, Regular Army=RA, Soldiers=Men, An=A, Managed=Ran, Emergency Room=ER
Colour/Font Scheme
Definition, Solution, Component letters, Embedded links, Theme word, Anagram Indicator, C/C indicator, Reversal Indicator, Hidden word Indicator, Letter Pick indicator, Deletion Indicator, Homophone Indicator, Movement Indicator, Positional Indicator, Substitution, Indicator, Link/Connector, Extraneous
Let me raise a question about words marked 'extraneous' in certain clues in Saturday blog.
ReplyDeleteAre they 'extraneous'?
It is not always possible to write a clue with def/wordplay.
Sometimes these two are merged by a word or two.
Cannot it be called 'link'?
Of course, a solver might hold an opinion that the link doesn't work, it is odd, it is incorrect, it is badly managed, it could be better etc.
But to brand a word as 'extraneous'?
What do the learned solvers think? And do THC setters, so many of whom visit here, have any opinions?
I feel extraneous should be used only for words which do not play any part in the wordplay which if removed will make no difference to the clue with regards to surface reading etc.
Delete+1
DeleteMy definition of extraneous is anything which cannot be used in the cryptic reading of the clue
DeleteRamesh, in this case I used 'trap' in the sense of 'getting' .. so it was a connector in my mind
DeleteOK, but please see the fourth line in my Comment Yes. as I have said, a couple of words in some clues may not be used in the cryptic reading. Call them extra, if you like, for 'extraneous' means 'not essential', 'irrelevant', 'not applicable'. .
Delete+1 to Col.
DeleteI will also go with what Col has said. It is quite difficult to write a cryptic clue: a clue with a cogent surface, wp all merging seemlessly. Sometimes we have to have connectors to merge def and wp. Unless the clue has unnecessary connectors we cannot call them Extraneous.e.g. 27D Beginning of the month everyone is at shopping centre. M+ALL. A cogent surface.WP and def connected by is at. I woukdnt call is at extraneous.
DeleteI disagree with the statement that they can be some unused words in the cryptic reading of the clues. The words in the clue could be of the type definition, link/connector or word play. Anything apart from these should be treated as superfluous. There is very little disagreement on definition and wordplay. The link/connector is where most of the differences arise. In my view, a connector must connect. Anything which cannot be explained as connecting, should be treated as superfluous
DeleteShrikanth, for 25D, I could not explain the presence of both "in" & "to trap". Hence treated one of them as redundant.
DeleteIn was used as container and trap = to get , so a connector to my mind.
DeleteA little iffy, but viewed this way it makes the cut. I will make the change
DeleteMy 2 cents worth: Something which can be used, but need not be, is not extraneous, it is just another way of writing a clue. Something which cannot be used at all meaningfully is extraneous, it can't be there 'just for the surface'
ReplyDeleteRamesh,
ReplyDeleteI raised the subject to thrash out the issue.
If we consider the clue
27. Beginning of the month, everyone is at shopping centre (4)
'at' seems to be what you call extraneous.
'at' does work as link sometimes but here between wp and def, it does not seem to have any role.
Right. If you remove 'at' the clue makes no sense
DeleteMy view is that 'at' works to connect components, but not between wp & defn ( unless 'at' can somehow be used as a part of the word play)
DeleteI felt "held" in 9a extraneous not "by". In this context, earlier coming immediately after silver makes the same sense of held. (Held is actually a given away।) the clue actually reads better without held.
Delete13a at is def extraneous making it look a forced connector. "Could be the one forced doorstep" so much better for cryptic.
27a "everyone is shopping mall" doesn't work. At is better surface reading as connector.
But i have another doubt: grammatically shouldn't it be "eveeyone are" since The implication is all and not each.
Shouldn't we allow setters idiosyncrasies before pointing true extraneous words! Otherwise someday a bot would set a crossy?
@Deepak/Ramesh 12:46/12:47 With due apologies to my good friend Shrikanth for commenting on his clue and hope he will accept my apologies:
ReplyDeleteYes 'at' if removed will render the surface meaningless. At the same time it is not a valid connector for 'equivalence' to link wordplay and definition, it can work for a charade. But all this has been mentioned before. To make it work for both surface and cryptic readings an alternate approach could be used, for eg, " (At) beginning of the month everyone comes to shopping centre"
Whether it should be termed "extraneous" or something else is just semantics
Thanks Bhala. That is a useful lesson. And there was no need for the preamble.You know me well enough for that :)
DeleteIf the word is redundant or not a valid connector we should rewrite the clue rather than keeping the original surface. Only my opinion :)
DeleteMost of us are friends and if I make any Comment, it is only towards furtherance of our knowledge and not in any carping and cavilling manner. And it is always couched in polite language and with readiness to see the other point of view without holding firm to what I say.
ReplyDeleteIXL18 first round solution uploaded. All correct. Thanks IKR for the info in fb. Leaderboard not yet uploaded.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the typo. Read Thanks KKR...
DeleteCongrtas,Ram. Keep up the good work.
DeleteI will be in Chennai from 22nd Oct evening till after lunchtime on 24th Oct basically coming in by road for our US Visa. Could we meet up over lunch or dinner on a convenient date, with our spouses of course, as Gita will be with me
ReplyDeleteI will be leaving Tenkasi on 22nd evening to be back at Kanchipuram on 23rd morning. If it is 23rd or after I am in.
ReplyDeleteReady & waiting.
ReplyDelete