Tough going today with xChequer's pangram, quite devious but excellent on the whole. I'm sure there will be a lot of cribs from the samosa band.
ACROSS
1 Poster in place of official notice (6) ADVICE {AD}{VICE}
4 Immoral man means to stop bachelor escaping a miserable
experience (8) RAKEHELL {bRAKE}{HELL}
11 Clothes worn by Nationalist secret societies (5) TONGS {TO{N}GS}
12 Intolerantly prejudiced one, having received the sack, is put
out (7) BIGOTED Anno pending (Addendum - {B{1}{GOT}ED} - See comments)
13 You bet over millions, I second-guess (7) SURMISE {SUR{M}{I}{S}E}
14 Segment of DNA molecule got from a kiss in ages (4) EXON {E{X}ON}
15 Beam perhaps from fire, low in intensity (10) TORCHLIGHT {TORCH}{LIGHT}
19 Foolish person on foot crossing illegally (10) JAYWALKING {JAY}{WALKING}
20 Hart’s mate maybe (4) HIND [GK]
23 Host’s pleasure primarily lying in nothing more than connecting
with company (7) COMPERE {CO}{M{P}ERE}
26 Living on water for a time in a fast without end (7) AQUATIC {A}{QU{A}{T}ICk}
27 Told to forcibly open something of great value (5) PRIZE (~prise)
28 A state full of life is a state full of vim? Very redundant!
(9) ANIMATION {A}{N{vIM}ATION}
29 Whole Byzantine Italy backs an infant (8) TOTALITY {TOT}{ITALY*}
30 Subsidiary action alongside drama (6) BYPLAY {BY}{PLAY}
DOWN
1 Good-natured fellow in a story (7) AFFABLE {A}{F}{FABLE}
2 Pointless honour for inordinate pride (9) VAINGLORY {VAIN}{GLORY}
3 Animal shy up to a point (6) COYOTE {COY}{OT<=}{E}
5 Advisers answer on a specified day around the middle of the month
(5) AIDES {A}{IDES}
6 Only hospital section attached to say, eye bank (8) ENTIRELY {ENT}{I(~eye)}{RELY}
7 Group in safari unnecessarily going round the doldrums (5) ENNUI [T<=]
8 Most succulent, essentially pulpy in case crushed (7) LUSHEST {L}USHEST Anno pending
9 Manual record of bets following a set of cards dealt (8) HANDBOOK {HAND}{BOOK}
16 Pot or container is filled with catch (8) CANNABIS {CAN}{NAB}{IS}
17 Agile slim girl picks up root of taro plant for making flour
(9) GRISTMILL {GRIS{T}MILL*}
18 Parting with passenger in a good way (8) FAREWELL {FARE}{WELL}
19 National flag on vessel is the ultimate prize (7) JACKPOT {JACK}{POT}
21 Disheartened clergy supporting study about church propriety
(7) DECENCY {DE{CE}N}{ClergY}
22 Nervous question posing no problem (6) QUEASY {QU}{EASY}
24 Humid island inhabited to the greatest extent (5) MOIST {MO{I}ST}
25 Perfectly right demand (5) EXACT [DD]
8 Most succulent, essentially pulpy in case crushed (7) LUSHEST {L}USHEST Anno pending
ReplyDeletein case=LEST
essentially pulpy= mUSHy
ergo
BTW, BP and DG's query regarding 6d yesterday answered in late evening
Not good in my view ad essentially pulpy would give you ULP
DeleteAlso, crushed is ignored in my anno. So I am missing something else too ...
DeleteSecondly, what is the role of crushed?
DeleteExactly.
DeleteBTW, the mushy word reminded me of our neighbour's ex-President who was sometimes mushy, sometime rough
In case meaning lest. Maybe lest is crushing the essential part of mushy
Delete12 Intolerantly prejudiced one, having received the sack, is put out (7) BIGOTED
ReplyDeleteB{I}{GOT}ED
12 Intolerantly prejudiced one, having received the sack, is put out (7) BIGOTED Anno pending
ReplyDeleteone received= 1 GOT
sack=BED
B(I GOT)ED
Beaten by Sandy's fff (fastest finger first)
DeleteVery interesting !!
ReplyDeleteClue of my day: CANNABIS
Had a lot of erasures for 4a 4 and 8d but then , they fell in place.
succulent: juiciest, ripest, softest - lushest
ReplyDeleteimmoral: baseness was the first word taking BA as a start-- turned out to be a boobytrap.
Ask me about doing it online !! Godd exercise for the eyes?
+1. for the tagline. Devious is the operative word. For eg, though there was 'say' i hooked on to thinking orbit which is the eye socket. Wrongly judged that deviousness will stop at calling orbit an eye bank:)
ReplyDeleteI too found this puzzle tough, but well constructed. Kudos, BP.
DeleteNo doubt about that :) the lesson as a setter I take is the optimisation of every single word in a clue. Not even one is wasted in BP's clues.
Delete29A what is the role of Byzantine in 29A
ReplyDeleteA ind. B... means winded/intricate/labyrinthine ...
DeleteThanks Kishore
DeleteAlso have a doubt on 23A . Can 'connecting with' indicate the front position of Co ?
ReplyDeleteCO comes from Company. Connecting with is just to indicate CO connected with {M{P}ERE}
Delete8d: essentially of "crushed" is USH and that in LESH gives LUSHEST. But not sure why essentially is placed differently. And why pulpy?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete8 Most succulent, essentially pulpy in case crushed (7) LUSHEST
DeleteI think the intended anno is
essentially pulpy - mUSHy
in case - LEST ('in' is not a c/c ind)
crushed - anag. signal
So: USHLEST* = LUSHEST
The word order is correct.
So many indirect fodders in the above anno. MUSHY for PULPY is indirect. LEST for in case is again indirect
DeleteIt is not essentially crushed, it is essentially pulpy. That is why the doubt about the use of 'crushed'. we will have to get the synonym of 'pulpy'. See Kishore's comment.
ReplyDeleteI found this and a few others devious, as suggested in the by line. But quite a few good ones too.
12A- Is it "one having received the sack" or "sack having received one"? It is 1 (or I) in 'Bed'
ReplyDeleteI think we should read as 'sack is put out' as 'Bed' being split, am I right?
ReplyDeleteThis is correct. Received is not insertion indicator, it is GOT
DeleteI am curious about the use of fairy used as a synonym for a gay man. The use of the word is considered to be at the very least, politically incorrect and extremely disparaging, akin to the use of the word "nigger". No one refers to the word fairy unless with an intention to insult someone. So is it fair that setters use these words in such contexts or they need to be politically correct as well?...your opinions please.....
ReplyDeleteajay
Of course it's offensive and should've been avoided.
DeleteCrosswords generally avoid derogatory terms and I am sure THC setters too avoid them as far as possible.
ReplyDeleteHere in the instant case we need to substitute 'fairy' for 'gay'.
In the surface reading the word 'gay' means 'joyous'.
Only in wordplay do we need to substitute 'fairy' for 'gay'. In fact, many of us may come to know of the word only now.
It is a mere word substitution and some knowledge too is imparted. Dictionaries record the meanings, don't they? The derogation come only when I call X, known to be gay, a 'fairy'. That is not happening here.
Well this is my opinion. what do others think?:
You have put it very well CV. Exactly what I had in mind
DeleteI beg to disagree with you here. Even if the surface reading is innocuous enough, we are meant to substitute that word for the politically incorrect word. Yeah i am sure we might have words like nigger, chink or whatever in the dictionary but i dont think an african american or someone from the north east would like themselves portrayed in a crossword in that manner. Thats were sensitivity comes in and becomes more important. So what if someone is not particularly being referred to, it is still true that a certain usage is being endorsed. There is the question of appropriateness not just a technicality.
Deleteajay
You are quite entitled to your view and I respect it.
DeleteI was surprised to see the wordplay in 10a. Agree with Ajay here.
DeleteA lot of soul searching went into this wording before finally letting it stand for submission. But I respect all views, and hope mine will be equally respected.
DeleteFirst of all, Chambers (my primary reference) has this entry for fairy:
2 slang, sometimes derog a gay man
The operative word for me was sometimes, and this is definitely not one of those times.
CV has also highlighted some of the considerations which I had in mind, so will not repeat here, just endorse.
I have seen Woman = Broad, and something = TART many a time. These are considered offensive in any dictionary, no sometimes about it. But haven't seen any complaints.
Recently, when doing a Guardian puzzle online, I came across a grid entry (SON OF A B****). Was quite surprised, and visited the discussion forum to see if there were any grouses. Nary a whimper.
But ultimately, when in doubt, I resort to checking with the guidelines for setters from the Times Listener crossword series (and they are as stringent as they come). I reproduce the relevant extract below:
Quote Answers that have only vulgar, offensive or derogatory meanings are not acceptable and setters should avoid using or referring to similar language in clues, especially in the surface reading. Unquote
I am fairly certain this would have passed muster
I can argue further but maybe this is not the forum for that. Son of a b***** is a cussword and doesnt particulary target any community or type. Maybe Shuchi, if you find it interesting you would perhaps like to explore it in one of your columns later on. Maybe most or all authorities are White, Male, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, patriarchal, heteronormative, etc etc and the cruciverbalist's world is but a microcosm of this. The reality today is different so do we need to think differently. After all our words are but the raiments of our thoughts.
DeleteThanks Bhalchandra and everyone for their views.
ajay
Well this is how I'd see it. Assume I'm a gay solver who often gets taunted with insults like "fairy" and the other F word, by bigoted homophobic individuals. How do you think I'd feel on coming across this word association? Well for one thing, definitely not pleased. In fact I'd go like "seriously, what has this setter got against our types?"
DeleteFor this reason, I feel it's safe to avoid derogatory terms in any form, for the simple reason that some section of the solving public might take offense. I recall an instance on this blog where one of the female solvers objected to Scintilator associating the word girl with "dish." It might seem innocuous to many, but we can't rule out the possibility that it might offend a few. So why get into it? It ain't like the word cannot be clued in any other way or something.
I have seen Woman = Broad, and something = TART many a time. These are considered offensive in any dictionary, no sometimes about it. But haven't seen any complaints.
DeleteWell, I always wince when I see those usages and I've usually expressed my discomfort e.g. http://www.fifteensquared.net/2011/12/23/financial-times-13884-mudd/.
We sometimes do not realize the power of words when we are not the party affected by them.
On offensive words, this is worth a read: http://alberichcrosswords.com/pages/id230.html
8 Most succulent, essentially pulpy in case crushed (7) L(USH)EST
ReplyDeleteI think the intended anno is
essentially pulpy - mUSHy
in case - LEST ('in' is not a c/c ind)
crushed - anag. signal
So: USHLEST* = LUSHEST
The word order is correct.
I think crushed means to hold(in a tight embrace). Don't think it's an anagram.
Excellent puzzle and quite devious. No complaints.
How fair is substituting a word and then taking out the central letters?
DeleteIt doesn't seem fair IMO.
Good. It didn't occur to me.
DeleteIt could be a c/c because 'crushed' has the sense also of 'held' (in sports) and 'held' is a c/c ind. But then the word order seems to be poetic, if you get what I mean.
Agree with Raghu that it is not an anagram. In my view, it is fair.
DeleteVJ,
DeleteDon't see where the problem is?
I think that substituting a word and then taking out a part of it from 'essentially' or similar ind is absolutely fair. Indeed proper. Why should it be given gratis? I might not complain it it were given for free.
DeleteExcept indirect anagrams ( a no-no), have we not come across deletions for word meanings?
DeleteI'm surprised that this is not considered unfair.
DeleteWould you consider below examples fair?
First of December perhaps = First of month = M
First to break = First to fracture = F (as against B)
Element essentially = central letter of any of elements in the periodic table (as against M)
Month essentially = central letter(s) of any of the 12 months (as against N)
run essentially = operate essentially = R (as against U)
pass essentially = approve essentially = R (as against AS)
run primarily = carry primarily = C (as against R)
VJ
DeleteI have since checked some clues in UK crosswords.
There the fodder for 'essentially' is given straightaway.
If we go by conventions in the well-established UK crosswords, you're right.
I haven't checked my own clues where I have used 'essentially'.
Surprise, surprise
DeleteNot one clue that I have written so far for more than 800 crosswords (that means 800x at least 30 clues) uses the word 'essentially'.
CV, I think it makes sense too. If indirect anagram is unacceptable, so are the above examples. Well if a clue had just the wordplay part and not the definition, it'd be quite impossible for any solver to arrive at the solution if any of the above examples are used. Perhaps if the definition is somehow known before uncovering the wordplay, then the parsing could be done to suit our convenience (i.e. against all conventions). But that's not what we want do we?
DeleteRight. The answer was fairly from the crossings and the anno dawned pretty fast as well. Perhaps that is why we thought it fair. But looking at your examples there is valid point, VJ. I do not remember if I have seen this usage in a UK cw. Maybe it works where the alternate word is one which is 'obvious', I cannot think of an example straightaway. Admittedly the alternate word, mushy, is not quite so obvious.
DeleteBut in every case of deletion, charade etc. don't we always the other word? So what if that word is uncommon?
DeleteLimitless outpouring? Exactly (3) {-s}PAT{-e}
DeleteLittle shark edges away from diver's equipment (3) {-s}CUB{-a}
Dull speeches, hollow assurances (6) PRO{-mi}SES
Are the above fair or not?
But conceding a point to VJ, here the above are complete clues and not part of the clue as in case of todays puz, so the def is available.
Delete'Essentially' is used as a selection indicator (inverse deletion indicator). The point here seems to be should it be from the fodder direct or can it be from a word derived from the wordplay.
DeleteI am inclined to think it can be both. How else do you justify a similar usage with 'disheartened, hollow, cored, limitless, brief, endless, etc'. The device is essentially very much the same.
I think there is a difference (a fairly big one) between getting 3 consecutive letters from an equivalent word, as opposed to taking just a single letter from a substitution by example (ref VJ's examples), also bearing in mind that they need to fit the crossings.
I would perhaps think otherwise when a device such as 'odd, regular, even, often etc' is used, as this would render it fairly complicated, though it might even be acceptable in very advanced cryptics
And to set the debate at rest, the anno is indeed mUSHy inside LEST. I thought Kishore already had it in his first post, was surprised at all the comments that followed. But then I realised 'crushed' also has 'ush' in the middle, perhaps leading to some confusion.
As to CV's comment about being poetic, how I wish! No talent in that direction. But quite proper usage nonetheless. Consider this really brilliant clue (which appeared elsewhere but was highlighted in our pages not too long back) for
TOMBOY = ...... there's a sweaty smell to my clothes
Could someone annotate TOMBOY please ? What's the definition ? I'm all at sea !
DeleteBO: body odour. TO MY clothes ( verb form) TO MY is around BO. It is &lit clue where the whole clue is the def
DeleteWell taking out 3 letters or otherwise, it seems like an indirect anagram to me. If ANI was clued as "element essentially," I'd be equally flummoxed and would feel it's unfair.
DeleteThanks, Raghu. I could guess TO MY and BO to form the answer , but BO and definition part was not clear to me. One more doubt, could the clue have been one mentioned by Ajeesh @ 2:14 ?
Delete13 You bet over millions, I second-guess (7) SURMISE
ReplyDelete28 A state full of life is a state full of vim? Very redundant! (9) ANIMATION
Excellent clues, IMO.
23 Host’s pleasure primarily lying in nothing more than connecting with company (7) COMPERE
Is the position of 'co' correctly indicated? Can it be read as MPERE + CO?
I believe there is no prob with component word order.
Delete(Questioning you like a lawyer)... Can it also be taken as MPERE CO?
DeleteSame doubt I raised - 9.07
DeleteI saw your 907 after I posted mine.
DeleteIt was not to point that out. :) Colonel replied to it and now CV Sir also indicate that it is in order. But I am not convinced yet.
DeleteNo problems.
DeleteMy opinion to this legal question is that it works both ways (ahead and behind), one has to choose what makes sense. Have come across this usage in Guardian. Deliberately left it so, could have otherwise used 'pursuing' as an alternative (deleting with), without sacrificing the surface
Delete...and one from the Samosa band. I've been kept starving since yesterday. No Samosas even today ! :)
ReplyDeleteHopefully, you'll be breaking your fast tomorrow!
DeleteDo you think there is a 'ghost' of a chance ;-)
Delete...fingers crossed !
DeleteWish I could be making such promises too. :)
DeleteKishore,
DeleteWhat do you think?
Fair chance methinks
DeleteAwful puzzle unashamedly from the rediculed Samoa band
ReplyDeleteHow can it become awful , just because it takes more hard work to complete? There is absolutely nothing to complain about the puzzle at all. In fact even the term devious used here is more as a compliment (definitely not wicked) .. This is an excellent puzzle IMHO.
DeleteAnd Samosa band is not ridiculed either !!! The tagline just anticipates that a section of people would find it hard. I found it hard pretty much.. But having cracked it finally, I will buy my samosas now..
Buy jilebis too, as you have cause to celebrate
DeleteThanks Shrikanth for sticking up for me. Awful...hmm. I suppose I just have to take the liberty of construing it in the way it was meant for Christopher Wren's creation (St. Paul's Cathedral) which was described as amusing, awful and artificial!!
DeleteSorry Maradnusro, for not living up to your expectations.
I saw stars too today!
ReplyDeleteKishore @ 12.06 - For that reason enough partying has already happened :)
ReplyDeleteQuestion regarding 17 D- How is root of Taro T and not O? Considering the fact that it is a down clue
ReplyDeleteRoot = source / origin
DeleteThanks for the comments, lively discussions et al. Ultimately everyone will have an opinion, and I respect that too, so my clarifications will be just in the nature of what went behind my thought process and some other considerations. Will just attempt to post against respective comments, though some threads are broken
ReplyDeleteVariety is the spice of life- we have variety in CW's with different setters and we have variety too in comments! Let us enjoy all varieties!
ReplyDeleteNice puzzle today. Could finish approx 75%
ReplyDeleteMB,
ReplyDeleteBy Anax
I am not lady-like: there's a sweaty smell to my clothes (6)
...err, I'm a bit of 'Tubelight Type' ! Sometimes need spoon-feeding ! What's Anax ? Know the meaning of Tomboy alright. Hope I'm not bothering you. PS throw some more light :)
DeleteI'm with Ajay and Shuchi on 10A. Didn't like it when I solved it. Don't like it any better now after reading the arguments and counter-arguments.
ReplyDeleteAs a setter you can't set too much store by an entry in one particular version of one dictionary. For example ODE lists the word as 'Informal, derogatory a male homosexual'. No context or qualification where it is not. My 12th edition of Chambers dictionary has: 'A male homosexual (derogatory)'. Again, no 'sometimes' or such exception.
The usage of words like Broad, Tart, Chick, Whore to refer to a woman whether in surface or wordplay aren't any likeable either. So IMO their usage elsewhere cannot be a justification for using 'fairy' here.
The way I see it, the Times Listener policy you quote still doesn't say you can use such words. Closer home, I find this sentence from THC's Xword specifications more relevant and unambiguous:
_________________________________________________________
Words
No rude, offensive or communal words should be included.
_________________________________________________________
The other thing I found odd in the puzzle are wordplay components that share the same meaning as in the final answer (4A:Hell, 2d:Vain) or a word split along parts that make it up (19A: Jay walking, 18d: Farewell)
Hi Bhavan, Thanks for spelling out the arguments. I was reluctant to get into a long-drawn out debate. You cant say that it is sometimes and not other times. Had i used it in my organisation against somebody, I would be certainly hauled up, if not for outright sacking than surely for counselling. The problem I particularly faced solving this was thinking about synonyms for gay and did not even remotely think about fairy, not because I didn't know the word but felt it was inconceivable for anyone to be using it in this day and age, when so many of my friends are gay. Ergo, my comments earlier.
DeleteAjay
ajay
What is offensive and what is not is dependent upon the time and place where they occur. I have seen Broad, tart etc used in Guardian crosswords and they are not considered offensive. Maybe the times have changed.
DeleteRegarding fairy, it is not a word that is used in India in the sense used in this cw. In India, despite the Supreme Court having lent legality to the practice, any person who is homo sexual would not be socially acceptable. But does that make the word homosexual taboo? The point I am making is that fairy does not become any more unacceptable than the word homo.... in India.
MB,
ReplyDeletehttp://anaxcrosswords.wordpress.com/about/
Thanks, Ajeesh ! Shall visit that site right away !!
DeleteThat forum has moved elsewhere:
Deletehttp://www.ukpuzzle.com/phpBB3/index.php
Shall try this site too, CV Sir.
DeleteQuote Answers that have only vulgar, offensive or derogatory meanings are not acceptable and setters should avoid using or referring to similar language in clues, especially in the surface reading. Unquote
ReplyDeleteWill this violate the rules (though it may violate sensibilities - pardon me, but I am just seeking an opinion here)
Scrap family jewels (4)
Highlighting the word 'only' in the above quote, all the words have other meanings, though the unstated wordplay would probably cause concern.
There were instances in the past too:
ReplyDeleteSunnet: Kills, decapitating a woman of loose morals, at sea (8) OFFSHORE
KKK: Card game of dark African country? (10) MONTENEGRO
In the movie Singam-2 there was a dialogue where the hero calls the African villain, 'dark African monkey'. Again in the recent flick Raja Rani, Santhanam coolly uses a Japanese and a black person and goes about making racist jokes. There is much less furore in the usually hyper social media on this. I guess as a nation, we are generally insensitive to racism, offensive words and such. Anything marked 'offensive' or 'derogatory' must be ignored outright - pointing to other newspapers and setters and forums comes across as a limp cop-out.
Re 8D, in using indicators like 'primarily', 'essentially', 'regularly', 'odds of' 'head of', etc, the exact fodder has to be specified. The clue is quite ambiguous because of the numerous synonyms possible for PULPY. Besides, there is no way to know if 'essentially' picks only three letters and not two/one/four or what the number of letters in the word for 'in case' is.
+1 to Bhavan's excellent criticism of JAYWALKING, FAREWELL, etc.
That's a whole lotta generalization. If you think racist jokes are made only in Indian movies you got another thing coming. It happens in Hollywood, European and even other Asian movies. Movies everywhere contain sex and violence as well. So why do we object when all these are brought into a crossword puzzle? Well I think it's partly 'cause we see crosswords as a more sophisticated platform. We presume that we're a bunch of refined intellectuals, which is probably making us uptight.
DeleteI never said racist jokes are limited to Indian movies. My point was our stars are ignorant of the degree of the offensiveness. I do not envisage Surya telling that dialogue had he known 'monkey' is considered offensive by Africans. I am not sure if these people are ignorant or insensitive, but I will side on the former.
DeleteBhavan: re your comment:
ReplyDeleteThe other thing I found odd in the puzzle are wordplay components that share the same meaning as in the final answer (4A:Hell, 2d:Vain) or a word split along parts that make it up (19A: Jay walking, 18d: Farewell)
Would you elaborate a bit, I don't get it. I can't see the same component getting repeated.
- Rakehell: Immoral man; wordplay components are brake and miserable experience
- Vainglory: Excessive pride; wordplay components are pointless and honour, with the contrast giving the essence of the surface
- Jaywalking: crossing illegally; wordplay components are jay (foolish person, one who talks foolishly), and on foot = walking. The whole thing taken together may be seen as the same thing, but that would tend towards &litting rather than exact split components
- Farewell: parting; wordplay components are passenger and good way, nothing remotely connected with the expression itself
Shyam, I missed the centre part of your comment (8d). The argument as you have stated does not necessarily hold true. In your opinion then, a charade can have 2 components, there is no way of knowing how the letters break up for each component, one of the components may be clued as 'fish' (of which there are probably 5K varieties and counting), yet that would be OK. Or substitute any other word for fish with as many meanings as pulpy. But a similar clue which involves a deletion won't be OK. No, I don't buy that.
DeleteRegarding the last part, which touched upon Bhavan's comment, he's probably off in the land of Nod, but since you shared the opinion, feel free to elaborate if you like
Bhala, the general idea is that whenever the clue gives out letters 'in loose', the exact letters must be present. For example in your own clue, 'disheartened clergy'=CY' and not P{-RIESTHOOD}D or P{-RELAC}Y, etc. This is not true with deletion though: for example, RATIO can't be clued as 'ration mostly', but 'mostly a fixed portion' is acceptable. I guess a line is drawn based on the number of letters expected from the solver by that part of the wordplay.
DeleteWordplay is supposed to provide an 'independent path' to the answer. The etymology of JAYWALKING obviously comes from JAY+WALKING, so the clue more or less repeats the same definition twice. The clue is not a DD, as the definitions are the same. The charade wordplay becomes weak in such a case. To contrast, see the clue for TORCHLIGHT. Though the split is TORCH+LIGHT and is on the lines of the etymology, the definitions for TORCH(=fire) and LIGHT(=not heavy) are different from what they stand for in TORCHLIGHT. That clue is fine in that regard.
DeleteVAINGLORY is VAIN+GLORY, the wordplay won't work unless GLORY had two totally different meanings. Ditto with WELL in FAREWELL.
I see no problems with RAKEHELL, though.
Seems that the question is regarding use of compound words in the grid rather than the path to the solution, which as illustrated in my earlier comment comes without any complementary meanings or usage.
DeleteTo add a last point, the wordplay in 8D is not sound too. A, B crushed could equally mean: 'A, B is crushed'= 'B is crushed by A'. Or it could mean, as you intend - with a 'that' elided: A B crushed= A that B crushed = B crushed A.
DeleteHi all,
ReplyDeleteI've been away for a few days. Just saw the discussion regarding possible plagiarism in my recent puzzle.I'd like to make it clear that the similarly was entirely coincidental.
Now, as to offensiveness, I'm surprised no discussion has come up so far about the moniker of one of The Hindu's setters Klue Klux Klan ( if it has already, forgive me). First off, however, let me say that I am not attacking the setter and if I accuse him at all, it is of ignorance, not willful racism. So KKK, kindly do not consider this a personal attack. It is comprehensible to me how a paper that ostensibly cares about racism would allow the moniker to stand. The Ku Klux Klan,of course was a notoriously racist organization in the USA responsible for systematic oppression and barbaric lynchings of African Americans in the United States. The name, therefore carries a lot of hateful racist baggage and is deeply associated with and is almost metonymic of African American persecution. The fact that our setter's handle is a clever variation of the organization's name and not the actual name does not do much to mitigate its objectionableness to black people, no more than having a moniker like Adolf Hotler (sic) would be any less noisome to the Jews that Adolf Hitler.
But perhaps it is merely a question of what environments one writes in. If a writer used this handle in The New York Times, it would open a can of worms, but here, as there aren't many African American solvers who solve THC ( presumably), it raises not a peep.
KKK's pseudonym is kind of insensitive and it was pointed out on the same day of KKK's first appearance. It's a mystery how TH approved the pseudonym. And wonder what an expat American's (presuming he/ she is a liberal sort with no affiliation) reaction would be if the person came across this name on a national daily.
DeleteQuite surprised to see the criss-cross of words in this forum of wordplay, Oh, come on. now, it is just a play on words. !! But isn't that all about crosswords?
ReplyDeleteWhy should any word be termed derogatory, unless there was malice-aforethought on the part of the user-- here, the compiler. IT is all in your mind, folks !! I have come across a lot of badinage and ribaldry amongst the bloggers here in this forum, involving the fair sex . Was it aimed at any one individually? Nor was it sexist, per-se. Everything was harmless banter, full of wit , pun and humour. So why carp? We as setters and solvers enjoy usage of words in various forms and meaning.
Rules (whose?) of crossword are always evolving and some words , phrases or comments may be ''offensive '' to some and hence, as long as the intentions are not objectionable, let's learn and sensitivity being relative., will always be respected automatically. Solving crosswords also makes one more tolerant?
I just got a call from a fish. It is objecting to your use of the word 'carp' in the above post ...
DeleteKishore, your toons could be the subject matter of discussion as well!
DeleteShore they could ;-)
DeleteLemme make an open offer here, since the subject has been raised. If any one here feels that any of my cartoons are offensive, let them tell which one and I will request Deepak to take it down. This offer will continue till I continue to draw. Further, if you think the cartoons have to be discontinued, please voice your opinions and I will certainly oblige.
DeleteMY word !! Oh No !! Never. Why do you give up that easy? Keep on drawin' on !!
DeleteBloggers of the word : Unite !!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, thus spake Sheshapier.
Drawing ulterior meaning out of words and phrases is your problem: thus spake Raju
Simple. I don't want to hurt anybody. I will continue to draw and share it in private with those who opt for it.
DeleteMy query of 450 remains unanswered ...
DeleteI want to evoke pleasure, not pain. There is enough suffering in the world to last till eternity. Why add to it?
DeleteAfter my own Comments and those of Suresh, RajuU and others, read the following article which I just now found. It is excellent:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2006/04/the_dirty_word_in_43_down.html
Read also:
ReplyDeletehttp://puzzles.about.com/library/weekly/aa010813.htm
It's a hard issue to tackle. On the one hand, I'd like to think of Xies ( or this forum) are of the few remaining bastions that resist the pervasive political correctness that fetters creativity and shackles art. On the other, words do not exist in a vacuum, even in the hallowed corridors of the crossword,and are imbued with meanings, and these can be offensive.
ReplyDeleteGroups of people are genuinely and grievously offended by some things, regardless of whether or not offence is intended. Editors exist (where they do) to ensure that derogatory terms do not make it to the final edition that appears in the paper. I was once asked ( perhaps rightly so, in retrospect, though I did not think so at the time) to cull the word 'shiksa' from a crossword I constructed.
As people who play with words, nearly everybody on this forum has a propensity to veer to double entendres and puns of all stripes. We're all interested in words and meaning, these alternative possibilities flash before us instantaneously, with no malicious intent. More often than not, the only reason to say a thing, it's very raison d'etre, is that it is funny or witty or clever. But it can also be hurtful or damaging, and if you're maligning one group of people,albeit with no evil intent, just to get a few laughs, you should perhaps rethink your joke. Manifestations of misogynistic and racist stereotypes are all the more terrible if they are unconscious and instinctual; they hint all the more at the entrenchment of these biases in society.
It's hard to know where to draw the line. My own clues, I've noticed, sometimes take a definite turn towards the risque, and while some don't mind it, others see it as offending good taste.