Monday, 3 July 2017

No 12049, Monday 03 Jul 2017, Incognito


ACROSS
8   Inter-town transfer of ruby (4) BURY* [DD] plus word play. Inter =BURY = Town also
9   Accept reel, gaffe and creel, for example (10) RECEPTACLE*
10 Not now! Return and get a dumpling! (6) WONTON {NOT}{NOW}<=
11 Carvings on hinges etc. manufactured without use of energy (8) ETCHINGS {HINGES+eTC}*
12 Amish PRO's funny, concise observation (8) APHORISM*
14 Formula to cook rice with a pinch of pepper and some egg (6) RECIPE {RICE}*}{Pe...r}{Egg}
16 Hit and run (4) DASH [DD]
17 Bails out Herb, say (5) BASIL* Why 'say'?
18 Lies about garlands (4) LEIS*
19 Offer nurse to communist revolutionary after 10 (6) TENDER {TEN}{RED<=} [DD] plus word play Offer = TENDER = Nurse
21 Cap distilled murky ale (8) YARMULKE*
23 Gypsy loses tail and returns girl's telescope (8) SPYGLASS {GYPSy<=}{LASS}
26 Chuckle, chuckle! First letter scraps hotel uniform (6) CACKLE C(-h-u+a}ACKLE
27 Understand idiot consumed ... consumed Indian mother in law initially (10) ASSIMILATE {ASS}{I}{MIL}{ATE}
28 Not odd, like this number (4) EVEN [DD]

DOWN
1   Damaged pool faucet's not in its location (3,2,5) OUT OF PLACE*
2   Canine's optical organ as well as tail hurt at first (8) EYETOOTH {EYE}{TOO}{Tail}{Hurt}
3   Submariner dumps broken arms and moves to part of Borneo (6) BRUNEI sUBmarINER*
4   A revolutionary (Ernesto Guevara)'s pain (4) ACHE {A}{CHE}
5   A bit of spirit on the chest (not round) can be ghostly (8) SPECTRAL {Sp...t}{PECToRAL}
6   First killer returns without starting to negotiate after man becomes an insane person (6) MANIAC {MAn}{CAIN<=}
7   Go back after lawyer and get an online journal (4) BLOG {BL}{GO<=}
13 Maybe my sis is a small girl (5) MISSY*
15 Assassin after father at home gets an analgesic (10) PAINKILLER {PA}{IN}{KILLER}
17 Prohibit drinking place in charge becoming inhuman (8) BARBARIC {BAR}{BAR}{IC}
18 Laughed when girl left for North Carolina club and threw up (8) LAUNCHED LAU(-g+nc}NCHED Club is extraneous
20 Police officer's not out ... takes defensive position (4,2) DIGS IN {DIG'S} {IN}
22 Musician's chair's moving device (6) ROCKER [MD]
24 Mail clerk, for example (4) POST [DD]
25 Dance, hags, dance (4) SHAG*


GRID

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61 comments:

  1. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 08:35

    As expected- simple, neat & enjoyable. Could not parse cackle.
    Looking for something hidden behind Indian MIL, but could not find anything( except the first letters)
    Tender was really tender and nice.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 08:41

    I'm having a dialogue with Ramesh on WhatsApp regarding use of 'say' in 17A. What do others have to say about it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. vdsprasad49@gmail.com3 July 2017 at 10:18

      I feel even without 'say' it would have been perfect.

      Delete
  3. maradnusro3 July 2017 at 08:41

    A bit too easy. Having done it, now I don't know what to do.As an old foggy I cannot resist the temptation to proffer some unsolicited advice. Make it a tad bit tougher.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kishore3 July 2017 at 08:55

      Thanks

      Delete
    2. Unknown3 July 2017 at 17:22

      To make it tougher? No! Think about average solvers like me. This one is good. Enjoyed very much! 50 comments on this? Quite amazing!

      Delete
  4. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 08:47

    The dialogue between RJ and Me
    Ramesh Jagannathan: Thanks for standing in for last 2 weeks
    17a herb say, to indicate that we have to look for an example of an herb and not a synonym

    Me: Bails out Herb, works just as well

    Me: With Herb being name of a person in wordplay

    Me: Surface reading I meant

    Ramesh Jagannathan: We have got so used to treating synonyms and examples as the same that we have stopped expecting setters to differentiate them. What Kishore has is right. Your clue is acceptable too.

    Ramesh Jagannathan: Herb is not equal to Basil, in the sense I cannot replace herb with Basil in a sentence and expect it not to change the meaning

    Ramesh Jagannathan: So 'herb say' is the correct definition , while herb alone can be acceptable

    Me: Why not? Can't we have
    I added a herb in the recipe
    I added Basil in the recioe

    Ramesh Jagannathan: Yes. But herb can stand for thyme too

    Me: It can be for any herb

    Ramesh Jagannathan: Essentially every Basil is an herb, but a herbs are not basil

    Ramesh Jagannathan: So correct definition is Herb say and not Herb
    Ramesh Jagannathan: A herbs= all herbs

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kishore3 July 2017 at 08:49

      I say: I say, chaps!😀

      Delete
    2. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 08:53

      Our dialogue has knocked out your eyetooth!

      Delete
    3. vdsprasad49@gmail.com3 July 2017 at 10:22

      I replied to Col. before seeing the dialogue. 'say' perhaps makes the clue more perfect!

      Delete
  5. Suresh3 July 2017 at 08:47

    18d What is the role of 'club' in the clue? It works well even without it

    ReplyDelete
  6. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 08:51

    "bails out herb" doesn't make sense. The setter uses "bails out Herb" with capital H to make us think it's a woman criminal. Then he adds 'say' to mean 'for example', at the same time thinking we would go off the beaten track looking for a homophone. So the setter is being devious, unnecessarily complicating what might have been a very simple clue. This, in Tamil, is 'kuttaiya kuzhapparathu" - muddying the pond.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kishore3 July 2017 at 08:54

      CV bails out Incognito.

      But why woman? Herb is a male name

      Delete
    2. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 08:54

      Bails out Herb, could mean Bailing out Herb from police cuatody

      Delete
  7. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 08:54

    My 8:51 was in draft stage before the Col-Ramesh chat appeared here.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 09:01

    I do know the male name used in PGW but I associated the botanical term with girls.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 09:06

    RJ and Col: Your chat discusses and comes to the right conclusion on the use of 'say' but doesn't touch on why, in that case, H is in caps.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 09:15

    I was not wrong. It seems Herb is also a girl's name
    http://www.babynameshub.com/gendercompare.cfm?Name=Herb

    ReplyDelete
  11. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 09:24

    I did not know Herb could be a name in the first place- PGW or not. Learned something today- of course, anything could be an English name. We have had a cricketer by name Barber too! (Cook is the current captain)

    ReplyDelete
  12. Vasant3 July 2017 at 09:25

    Interesting discussion on herb. My take would be that say is required for making the def absolutely clear. Without say one may get the ans but with say probability of getting the ans increases.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Vasant3 July 2017 at 09:29

    Today's puzzle would inspire many to take up solving crosswords.
    Simple and enjoyable

    ReplyDelete
  14. Vasant3 July 2017 at 09:35

    The conversation between RJ & Col shows that Whats app can be utilized well instead of sharing inane jokes/vdos, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 10:07

    No one noticed the Twin definitions plus word play in 8A and 19A

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. vdsprasad49@gmail.com3 July 2017 at 10:30

      Never knew bury meant town and hence wondered about its presence in the clue. Thanks to crosswords we keep learning! I did notice the twin definition and wp in 19A.

      Delete
    2. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 10:35

      I was under the impression that 'Bury' would normally be part of a town's name like Canterbury etc.

      Delete
    3. Col_Gopinath3 July 2017 at 10:56

      Bury is a town in the UK. See the link in the main post

      Delete
    4. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 12:23

      As you know, I always do. This was my earlier opinion. Thank you for correcting me.

      Delete
    5. Vasant3 July 2017 at 21:35

      Sir did notice but there were so many things to "say" that these took a backstage. I think these make the solving easier and would open a whole new world to beginners. Hats off to Incognito for using them & for you to specifically mention them.

      Delete
  16. Raghunath3 July 2017 at 10:22

    Agree with CV, why use say when h is capital

    ReplyDelete
  17. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 10:34

    28A- Clue nos. are also becoming part of the clue. We had one like this recently- Three, if I remember correct.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kishore3 July 2017 at 11:15

      In this definition by example, is the clue number or the enum the example?

      Delete
    2. Col_Gopinath3 July 2017 at 11:22

      Enum, in my view

      Delete
    3. Kishore3 July 2017 at 11:40

      Enum being adjacent to 'this' is, imo, a better candidate than '28' at the other end

      Delete
    4. Kishore3 July 2017 at 11:48

      Though the question still remains :

      Can the clue number or enum be used as a part of the wp/definition

      Delete
    5. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 12:27

      Yes it can. It has been done before by many setters

      Delete
    6. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 13:41

      Clue number used as part of wordplay - I have seen it in UK crosswords and we too have done it. But enu being part of wp - I have not seen it so far but we can, I think.

      Delete
    7. Kishore3 July 2017 at 18:45

      Thanks, sir. My intention, as the Colonel correctly annotated, was to use the enum in wp

      Delete
  18. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 12:26

    enum? I don't get it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 12:28

      Enum in 28A is (4) which is an even number

      Delete
    2. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 13:29

      Thank you Col. I get stumped by these abbreviations. They strike when least expected. I never connected "this no." with enum- rather the clue no.28. When K is asking if it is right to use the clue no., how is this justified? Anyway in this clue "not odd" looks to be more positive.

      Delete
  19. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 12:37

    There is no enum in 28A- just this no. So I took it as 28.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Deepak Gopinath3 July 2017 at 12:49

      Enum stands for enumeration, ie., the length of the answers shown at the end of the clue

      Delete
  20. raju umamaheswar3 July 2017 at 13:16

    thanks Kishore for the SHAG dance. Thanks , Deepak for the video. Made me to Dekko it Baar Baar !

    I agree with Vasant about the simplicity of Kishore's cluing. A boon and a spoonfeed for beginners.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 13:45

    Paddy
    You say "I get stumped..."
    Never play cricket!

    ReplyDelete
  22. Padmanabhan3 July 2017 at 14:04

    Too late, anyway, to do that. That is why probably I chose tennis over cricket for playing.

    ReplyDelete
  23. VMA Nair3 July 2017 at 17:18

    SimBle puzzle. Could finish during the bus journey from CMBT to Velacheri!

    ReplyDelete
  24. cdrgani293 July 2017 at 18:55

    i never knew there are such nuances in the use of 'say' in Xwords clue !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Vasant3 July 2017 at 21:09

      You may not be alone! But what has transpired is an interesting and enlightening discussion. Which is why this blog is so useful and worth visiting.

      Delete
  25. cdrgani293 July 2017 at 18:56

    i refer to 8 across !

    ReplyDelete
  26. Kishore3 July 2017 at 20:20

    Goodnight all

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chaturvasi3 July 2017 at 21:36

      Yes, I am reaching for Goodknight!

      Delete
    2. Vasant3 July 2017 at 22:01

      So many mosquitoes in Chennai😀😀😀😀😀

      Delete

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